Elliott C. Back: Internet & Technology

Duke Rape Sex Scandal: A Summary

Posted in Cornell University, Law, Rape, Scandal, Sex, Sports by Elliott Back on April 19th, 2006.

There’s a lot going around about the Duke Rape Scandal, where the Duke University Men’s Lacrosse Team hired two exotic dancers (read, strippers) for a house party and later allegedly raped one of them upstairs in a bathroom. Besides the issue of rape, there’s also talk of a hate-crime, because the lacrosse team is white except for one member, and the alleged victim black. This post will attempt to present facts surrounding the case, starting with the victim and suspects, circumstances and events, and then commentary.

The Victim

An anonymous 27 year old African American student at North Carolina Central University was allegedly raped by three white lacrosse players at 610 N. Buchanan Blvd, Durham NC 27701. The first page of an application for a search warrant indicates that her initials are GM, after being processed by enhancement software:

duke-rape-victim-name.jpg

abyss2hope argues for identification of the alleged victim on his blog: “Tucker Carlson argued vigorously against Susan Filan, a former prosecutor, that the name of alleged victim in the Duke lacrosse rape case should be made public information.”

The Suspects

Collin Finnerty, 19 of Garden City, N.Y, and Reade Seligmann, 20 of Essex Falls, N.J., are sophomores at Duke University and members of the men’s lacrosse team. As the victim has identified them with “100% certainty,” they have been arrested and charged with first-degree forcible rape, first-degree sexual offense and kidnapping. The defendants posted $400,000 bail. Finnerty was arrested last year for assaulting a man in Washington, D.C. According to the Washington Post, he “called the man derogatory names and anti-gay slurs, then punched him in his face and body when he told them to stop and tried to walk away.”

duke-rape-reade-collin.jpg
Reade Seligmann and Collin Finnerty

Last month, DNA tests on 46 of the team’s players (the team’s only black player was not tested because the victim identified her assailants as white) matched none of them. District Attorney Mike Nifong has said 75 to 80 percent of rape prosecutions lack DNA evidence. However, since the victim was examined within several hours of the incident, the DNA evidence will be hard for the prosecution to overcome.

Furthermore, Reade Seligmann has an alibi. At 12:24 a.m., his ATM card was used at a nearby Wachovia bank, and a written statement from a cab driver confirms driving him there. At 12:25 he was calling his out-of-state girlfriend. Then, the taxi drivers says that he drove Reade Saligmann to his dorm, where he entered at 12:46, according to electronic card logs.

Finally, the WRAL notes, “An exotic dancer who says three Duke lacrosse players raped her may have identified two of them based on photographs that show scratches on their bodies, a defense attorney for one of the men said Wednesday.” Identification by scratches does not seem to meet the 100% sure figure that the defense quotes for their identification.

The Events

The previously mentioned search warrant has a good outline of the claims that the alleged victim makes:

On 3/14/06 at 1:22am Durham City Police Officers were called to the Kroger on Hillsborough Road. The victim reported to the officers that she had been sexually assaulted at 610 North Buchanan Blvd. The investigation revealed that the victim and another female had an appointment to dance at 610 North Buchanan Blvd. The victim arrived at the residence and joined the other female dancer. The victim reported that they began to preform their dance in master bedroom area.

After a few minute, the males watching them started to get excited and aggressive. The victim and her fellow dancer decided tp leave because they were concerned for their safety. As the two women got into a vehicle, they were approached by one of the suspects. He appoligized and requested they go back inside and continue to dance. Shortly after going back into the dwelling the two women were seperated.

Two males, Adam and Matt pulled her into the bathroom. Someone closed the door to the bathroom where she, and said “sweet heart you can’t leave.” The victim stated she tried to leave and the three males (Adam, Bret, and Matt) force fully held her legs and arms and sexually assaulted her anally vaginally and orally. The victim stated she was hit, kicked, and strangled during the assault and she attempted to defend herself, but was overpowered. The victim reported she was sexually assaulted for an approximate 30 minute time period by the three males.

The Alibi Photo Timeline

There were 19 photos taken with a digital camera, timestamped, at the men’s lacrosse team party. The photos, taken between 11:02 PM and 12:41 AM claim to exonorate at least one suspect. What follows is a description of each photo:

11:02:36 p.m. Men are sitting around the house. Many have plastic cups in their hands.
11:08:28 p.m. Men throw their arms in the air as if they are cheering and posing for the camera.
11:09:25 p.m. A closer picture of a few men posing for the camera.
12:00:12 a.m. The first picture of the dancers. The accuser, wearing pink and white lace lingerie, is lying face down on the floor.
12:00:21 a.m. The accuser and the second dancer are dancing together.
12:00:29 a.m. Dancers are performing. The accuser has what looks like bruising on her knees. Her right shoe is missing from her foot. It can be seen in the background.
12:00:40 a.m. The two dancers are performing. A crowd of about 15 men is visible in the photo. The men are sitting on couches. They are not showing much reaction.
12:02:16 a.m. The accuser is on top of the second dancer. The accuser’s right thumbnail does not have a fingernail or polish on it. Her right pinky nail also does not have a nail. The men are smiling. The dancers are smiling.
12:02:46 a.m. A young man, who appears to be passed out, sitting in a chair.
12:03:57 a.m. The dancers by the door. The accuser’s right shoe is on the floor. The men in the room are sitting.
12:10:39 a.m. A young man passed out. His shorts are slightly pulled down.
12:30:12 a.m. The accuser is on the back steps of the house, alone. Her right shoe is off. She has a purse.
12:30:34 a.m. The accuser is still on the back steps of the house.
12:30:47 a.m. The accuser is on the stairwell of the back steps. Her mouth is open and her teeth are showing.
12:37:58 a.m. The accuser is lying on her back on the back stairs. She has a cut on her right foot. She has cuts on her right butt cheek. The stair rail has pink spots on it.
12:38:07 a.m. The accuser is lying on the back steps. A tan object can be seen in the background.
12:38:18 a.m. The accuser is still on the ground.
12:41:32 a.m. The accuser is seen getting into a black Honda Accord.

That “Vile” Email

duke-rape-ryan-mc-fadyen.jpg

Also of interest is the email that player Ryan McFadyen sent half an hour after the alleged attack, using his email account ryan.mcfadyen@duke.edu. A warrant to search his room in Edens Dormitory on Duke’s West Campus turned up the email. The full text of this email, which is sexually explicit, is not to be found in the mainstream news media. However, an uncensored version of it can be found in an application for a search warrant under the probable cause affidavit:

To whom it may concern

tommrow night, after tonights show, i’ve decided to have some strippers over to edens 2c. all are welcome., however there will be no nudity. i plan on killing the bitches as soon as the walk in and proceding to cut their skin off while cumming in my duke issue spandex.. all in besides arch and lack please respond

41

Ryan McFadyen was player number 41, and 19 years old. The typographical errors in this email are his. According the Duke University Former Men’s Lacrosse Team Coach Mike Pressler, this email is the cause of the season’s cancellation and his resignation.

That “Vile” Radio Show

On April 17, Michael Savage, a nationally syndicated radio show host said:

The Durham dirt-bag case disgusts me to my core. Here, you have a drunken slut stripping whore accusing men of raping her when there is absolutely no evidence of such a rape other than what comes out of that filthy mouth of hers. And what really gets to me, here, is not only the piling on by the vermin in the media — the spineless eunuchs in the media who are taking the side of an unknown accuser without ever having to ask her one question. What kind of system do we have that anyone can scream rape and not have to show her face, not answer to the public. And, yet, those she accuses are suddenly guilty until they’re proven innocent. This is all the product of the out-of-control lesbian feminist movement.

Bloggers Respond

Mary Katherine Ham writes, “They shouldn’t be presumed guilty because there are racial tensions in Durham; they are not guilty because they are white and privileged and their alleged victim was black; they are not guilty because there is a “culture of sexual entitlement” in collegiate athletics; they are not guilty because they had a stripper at their party.”

La Shawn Barber writes, “Although black-on-white rape is much more common than white-on-black rape, there’s something about the idea of a white man raping a black woman that brings out the retro speeches about slavery, white privilege, patriarchy, and the usual revisionist tirades.”

Talk Left writes, “The accuser got to the party at 11:30 pm. The evidence of sexual activity which the rape exam nurse found to be merely “consistent with” forcible sex, likely happened before she arrived, as did her physical injuries. There was a dispute (and possibly) a scuffle over the money – the players felt ripped off that the girls stopped dancing after just a few minutes and that one of them (the accuser) was too drunk to dance.”

Duke University Responds

The president of Duke University, Richard Brodhead, released the following statement:

For the past month, Durham and the nation have followed the allegations of a serious crime involving members of the Duke men’s lacrosse team. The emerging story has taken new twists and turns virtually every day. In this situation of inflamed passions and painful uncertainty, I have emphasized the importance of not rushing to judgment and allowing the legal system to establish the truth. I’m grateful that other Durham leaders, notably Mayor Bell and North Carolina Central Chancellor Ammons, have urged patience as well.

Today the case has taken a new turn: the grand jury handed down indictments against two students who have since been arrested. District Attorney Nifong will now have an opportunity to present his case, and we will learn on what basis he has pressed his charges. We also move from unfocused speculation about 46 members of the team to the court of law where the guilt or innocence of the individuals charged will be established. It is worth reminding ourselves that in our system of laws, a person is presumed innocent until proven guilty.

Many lives have been touched by this case. It has brought pain and suffering to all involved, and it deeply challenges our ability to balance judgment with compassion. As the legal process unfolds, we must hope that it brings a speedy resolution and that the truth of the events is fully clarified.

In the meantime, we have important work to do. The Duke and Durham communities must restore the bonds this episode has strained and learn whatever lessons it affords. Building upon the progress that has been made over the past decades, we must work to create a community that assures respect and dignity for all.

More Sources

Comments are appreciated.

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247 Responses to “Duke Rape Sex Scandal: A Summary”

  1. [...] Then there’s the common flamewar, which has erupted on my Duke rape case post. With 97 responses, we see gigantic paragraphs of debate being passed back and forth. Some comments are even in all caps. Eventually, it boils down to slinging insults: [...]

  2. Concerned father says:

    I have four boys and my older two have already gotten letters from several colleges. We’ve talked about Duke and the way the university threw these kids to the wolves.

    Even though these Duke boys are 18 and 19, they are still kids and not experienced with organized racists and feminists groups.

    People talk about the actions of normal boys wanting to see naked women dance, but no one is emphasizing the actions of mature and supposedly educated instructors inflaming mob behavior upon their own students.

  3. Jim Hord says:

    I’ve just read this blog, and agree that this case is a travesty of justice. How much money have the taxpayers of Durham County spent in prosecuting this ridiculous case? The DA should certainly be investigated for his role in handling of this case.

    The wreckage and immense damage caused by allegations such as rape and kidnapping against these three young men cannot be underestimated. I hope they are justly compensated from someone for their ordeal.

  4. Stef says:

    Justice-the "victim" is being treated exactly as what she is-a lying ****. The duke three are in fact innocent of rape, kidnapping, and sexual assault. No one is trying to prove they are perfect angels. But regardless of whether or not they are angels has nothing to do with the fact they are INNOCENT of the three charges…

    You have been wrong from day 1. The rape charges were dropped. She will NOT stand on trial and say "those are the men who raped me a.) because there was no rape, b.) because the IDs will be thrown out on February 5th and she won’t be allowed to id the three young men.

    If she does make it to the stand (though, I mean, with 3 illegitimate child, no daddy, and being doped up on prescription drugs, I find it hard to believe she will…) the defense will shred her, starting with her multiple stories, She won’t last 2 seconds on a stand. Case won’t go to trial.

    After this bullshit is over, Nifong is next on the hotseat. Already NC attorneys have petitioned for Mike Nifong to be prosecuted, and no, it is not only WHITE atoorneys. Do you not see what everyone else sees? A lawyer should not lie, cheat and steal his way to court. He pandered to you and the rest of the AA community by playing on your own racisms against white people. He used you to win an election. He doesn’t give a **** about you or any other black guy in Durham. He doesn’t give a **** about this woman. He only cares about himself. He is wrong. And anyone who justifies or supports a CORRUPT lawyer is wrong too. You support corruption. Well one day Mike Nifong might just "forget" to give exculpatory evidence to a jury when it’s a BLACK man’s life on the line. When it PROVES he wasn’t at the murder scene. Wait ’til it’s "your" people getting railroaded.

    But keep pretending this case is going MIkey’s way. We all know the truth. Everyone in this nation who doesn’t have a black mind tainted by racism knows that these guys are innocent and that this woman is a lying *****. It doesn’t matter what idiots like you think. You are a raving lunatic with poor grammatical skills, you couldn’t argue your way out of a paper bag. At the end of the day, educated people will come through, as they always do. The charges will be drpped, Nifong will be disbarred, and civil suits will pile up. Nifong and this **** lying woman will have nothing left. She will have to work overtime giving 5 dollar blowjobs at the Pink Taco or whatever ***** house she works at just to get by, while the Duke three will go back to their good lives, with good families, good jobs, and raise their own families without havign to have *** with strangers or allow strangers to watch them penetrate themselves with ****** and vibrators. Want to know why? Because not only do the Duke 3 have more class than this lying ****, they have more support, opportunities and smarts to make something of themselves. They realize how valuable life is and they don’t intend to squander their blessings like this ***** did. The Duke three have morals instilled in them by their parents who worked hard in MORAL jobs to give their families loads of opportunities, and the Duke three will do the same. They will give their families everything, unlike Crystal Mangum, who knows how to give nothing more than a lapdance and a ********.

    This case is a tragedy and exposes the African American community as racist and selfish.

  5. MIKE LANEER says:

    <b>Resign and apologize</b>

    I stated a while back that regardless of any upcoming situations, Mike Nifong would eventually drop this insane case, after of course he secured his vote in November. Now that he has secured his position, along with some serious national heat he’s drawn upon himself, he’s decided to drop the charges. Now he claims it’s only because the woman has now stated she cannot say with certainty that she was raped.

    If that was his true reasoning, then why wasn’t it dropped long ago when the former accuser had eight different stories? Point blank, Nifong used the race card among blacks to get his votes. The only real winner in this situation, despite being a single mom bearing yet another child, is the deranged individual herself, who will be receiving free education from no other than Jesse Jackson.

    Dropping the case isn’t enough. Nifong should be forced to resign and apologize to the families he’s hurt. I cannot imagine how this man shows his face in public, without feeling like crawling under a rock.

    Oh and if he’s reading, he might also want to drop those ridiculous kidnapping and sexual misconduct charges. Lord knows, it’s only going to cause him more embarrassment.

  6. BARBARA G. COLLIE says:

    You are right, Mike Silver. I am also tired of hearing from so many people across this great nation about the lacrosse crime. I ask you, where is the local outcry of the crime committed in Durham? All crimes should have proper punishment, regardless of race, financial or political status.

    Yes, a serious crime was committed here, but, not by three Duke lacrosse players. Far too quick judgment brought shame and much undue anguish on them, their families, their teammates, their coach, Duke University and the entire community of Durham. Shame on Mike Nifong and shame on all those who elected him to office. Shame on Duke for not giving more support from the beginning. Shame on The Herald-Sun for jumping in too early with judgment.

    Allowing these remaining serious charges to go on and on continues to hurt all of us in Durham and beyond who care about honesty and justice. Unfortunately, the new dropped rape charge has done lasting damage to all actual rape victims for years to come. I ask again … where is the Durham outcry and sense of honor?

  7. STEPHEN RICHARDS says:

    <b>Duke lacked courage</b>

    I have to agree with Gordon Grunte’s comments [Letters, Dec. 20] regarding how Duke University’s leadership handled the initial phase of the lacrosse story. My wife and I were upset with the lack of reason and courage exhibited by Duke’s leadership during that period and how they turned on and punished the entire team.
    The only words of reason and support for these young men (the true victims) came from some of their fellow students. It was clear that many team members were guilty of bad judgment and poor behavior and that they probably violated team rules and Duke policies.

    But regarding the rape charge—to anyone with an open mind and an understanding of our legal system, it should have been obvious that this case lacked merit and smacked of political opportunism. As one who loved the university even before I was fortunate enough to attend it (MBA,1981), I had always admired the tradition of Duke’s leadership and vision, as exhibited by leaders such as the late Terry Sanford.
    This great university, its students, faculty, alumni, the Durham community and the great state of North Carolina need better leadership at Duke.

  8. justice58 says:

    It’s a damn shame how the victim has been treated in this case. The duke 3 are NOT innocent. You cowards want to use a damn scare tactic to stop her from testifying against these ********. It won’t work!

    Nothing is going to happen to Mike Nifong ..you idiots!
    They are still facing prison time and Mike Nifong will put them there.

    LET THE TRIAL BEGIN!

  9. Rising Moon says:

    Nfong, the Black Community, the Media, and duke University itself should be ashamed at the way these three men have been treated: the way the ENTIRE LaCrosse team has been treated.

    Nifong patronized, exploited, used and deceived the black community into voting for him both as a democrat(which historically has TRICKED black people into voting for their party because that party is more than willing to feed the masses MORSELS rather than teach the masses the RESPONSIBILITY OF FEEDING THEMSELVES). True equality Comes with equal RESPONSIBILITY AND SOCIETAL CONTRIBUTIONS. Nifong has managed to lower himself to the level of the SO-CALLED victim of this farce. The black people of durham need to wake up and see just what has been done to set them and their causes back to the Jim Crow Era all in the name of winning an election. They should go after him now with the same rage (that HE INDUCED in them) with which they ELECTED him to have him DISBARRED, and ran out of town on a rail.

    Duke Officials in an effiort to cover it’s Azz has kept silent for far too long, suspended these boys without due cause(whatever happened to IUPG?) and protecting ones’ own. They were hung out to dry and there was no support from an institution that was in the beginning more than happy to take their tuition money and to benefit from the LaCrosse teams contributions to their income brought forth by their athletic department.
    Duke University itself was sooo afraid of offending the BlackCommunity that it sent these three lambs to slaughter. Duke now needs to do some serious damage control….all in the name of not offending the black community, it has managed to offend conservatives, and most normal people with a sense of true justice no matter what their political stance.

  10. Betty says:

    Mike Nifong is being investigated! He may just get his pole dance from the stripper ***** yet!

  11. Stef says:

    You guys should go to http://www.liestoppers.blogspot.com

    it’s a great blog site about the case, Isaac I think you’d enjoy it very much….especially because Justice58 posts over there…her latest post is about how racist we all are, and how Nifong’s case is now really a lot stronger because the rape charges were dropped. ANd how these ******** are still going to rot in jail for 30 years. However, she never mentions how she feels about the fact that the accuser "can’t remember" if she was raped…She never mentions the false rape charges now.

    Anyway, it’s a good site, a lot of work was put into it by the creators, if you guys are bored you should take a look.

    cheers.

  12. Isaac says:

    John, it is fascinating to watch someone who sticks to beliefs that are contradicted by the facts. So many people actually do that a little bit, that it interesting to observe a pure case, where the known facts provide no support for believing someone and yet some delusional people believe anyway.

  13. John says:

    Haha, I just read this whole thread. It was hilarious, hearing Justice58 and Isaac going back and forth. I think this case was a huge injustice, and should be studied in school, in how politics, the media, and racism interact with the justice system. The whole media thing was a circus, and it destroyed these innocent mens lives.

    I really don’t understand why people filter out all the facts, and just keep going with an ideological viewpoint. When I’m wrong, and someone shows me evidence against my beliefs, I admit it and move on. I am wrong sometimes. But some people, when shown evidence that goes against there belief system, become even more defensive, and cling stronger to their (misguided) beliefs.

    In this case, against overwhelming evidence, Justice58 contradicts herself, uses ad hominem attacks, red herrings, and pretty much uses every logical fallacy in the book. But the more she is proven wrong, the more she believes in her ideological viewpoint.

    Isaac, how can you talk to someone that long that is insane and delusional? I admire your patience, and it made an interesting read.

  14. Stef says:

    I hope Crystal and Mike get a cell together….maybe she can do a pole dance for him, or better yet, pull off one of the prison bars and **** herself with it for mike’s pleasure—at least she won’t lose practice on her trade.

    She is a ******* ****. I’m getting pissed that everyone’s totally blaming nifong, that he "pushed" this woman into the case…clearly he is a huge ******* and has everything to do with it, but she’s no angel either. She had the ability to end this hoax months ago, to admit she lied, to admit she lied to save herself from going to detox, to admit she made the whole thing up. Instead, she went into hiding, and allowed this whole sharade to go on for months. She was the one who lied. She was the one who invented this entire story to keep her *** out of jail. She was the one who continued to lie time after time, from her stories to her IDing, she never once told the truth about anything, nor did her pathetic family. It has been nothing but lies from day 1. What a good example to set her illegitimate kids. Not only do they have no fathers, not only does their mother sell her body to strangers for a living, but she has taught her children to lie to authorities and disregard everyone else’s lives if it saves your own ***. I bet those kids are going to grow up to be great kids. Selling crack and prostituting themselves out on the street.

    This case will make black people look horrible in the eyes of the public. Nothing but a raicts group looking to exploit anything to get ahead. How pathetic.

  15. Stef says:

    Justice58…where are you/ Why aren’t you screaming about the "victim" telling the truth now? Where are you telling us how good mike nifong is?

    Want to know what’s sad? You supported a liar. You supported a woman who was so horrible she would lie about rape to get out of being arrested. You supported a woman who ruined the lives of sooo many people. You supported a woman who duped every black person in Durham. You supported a **** stripper who was out for money. You supported a *****. You supported a corrupt lawyer who used black people to win an election. You supported a corrupt lawyer who lied to win. You supported a corrupt lawyer who didnt care how many lives he ruined, he had one goal-to win. You supported the lies and lies and lies of a woman who had no regard for anyone else but herself.

    I’m not surprised that you ran with your tail between your legs. You, the DA, and Crystal have made the Farican American community look like a bunch of idiot racists. You have helped make more white people hate black people. You have helped progress racism. Congratulations. You supported another Tawana Brawley. You supported lies and racism. You supported a woman who will make it so much harder for TRUE rape victims to come forward now. You made it so every person who ever reports a rape will be second guessed. Congrats.

    Who has egg on their face now? Who is crying with laughter that the das case fell apart and it was proved that this ***** was a lying sack of ****? Who are the victims now?

  16. Stef says:

    Justice58—who has egg on their face now?

  17. Betty says:

    Crystal Gail Mangum, who isn’t and was never a rape victim, claimed in graphic detail that she was gang raped vaginally, orally, and anally by three men in a bathroom – medical and police evidence never supported such a claim, yet Mike Nifong rail roaded three innocent boys, destroyed their reputations, and dragged this case out for almost a year. Ms. Mangum swore under oath months ago that she was 100% sure that two of the boys raped her and 90% sure that the other one raped her. Crystal destroyed the lives of innocent boys and Mike Nifong had a great part in the propogation of this rape lie. They both deserve prison time

  18. Isaac says:

    In yet another perdiction of mine come true, I have returned to gloat. I gloat now for the dropping of the rape charges. I will gloat more when the rest of the charges are dropped, even more if Nifong gets the civil, professional, and criminal penalties he deserves, I won’t hold my breath on Nifong getting spanked though. Going by past performance, the people who are supposed to be watching the watchmen in N.C. are asleep on the job.

    justice58, this is for you HAHAHAHHAHAH. LOL. ROFL.

    Nifong probably hopes the publicity will die down so he can drop the rest of the charges quietly later, or just lose the case with dignity. Fat chance Niffy.

    Though I must say, good timing on the announcement, Friday before Christmas, when few people pay attention to the news.

    Now let’s see the state of the case. Still have only the accuser’s word, only now she is saying she can’t say for sure whether she was raped or not. “100% sure these guys raped her” to “not sure she was raped at all”. Yeah, her credibility on the remaining charges is soaring. LOL

    Let’s see, so her story has gone from brutal gang rape in every orrifice to “not sure I was raped”. That’s not exactly “did I shoot five times or six”, or even “revolver or automatic”.

    Still Nifong has shown that when it is his own *** on the line, he is willing to drop charges. Before the conspiracy was revealed, his downside was he loses and can blame the jury, now his downside for going ahead with the rape charges is more testimony from his co-conspirator, maybe enough to send Nifong to prison for obstruction of justice.

  19. Betty says:

    I totally agree with you dogsoul, the power of “victimhood” is awesome, and these groups are very good at using “victimhood” in forwarding their agenda.

  20. dogsoul says:

    It seems MORE than apparent that most of the supporters of the alleged rape victim have formed their opinion on the basis of:

    1 – race – blacks and/or black sympathizers supporting blacks, or conversely condemning whites regardless of the merits of the case; a.k.a. the O.J. Phenomena
    2 – *** – women and/or feminism advocates supporting women, or conversely condemning men regardless of the merits of the case
    3 – social standing – low/middle class and/or well-off liberal advocates supporting low/middle class, or conversely condemning upper class regardless of the merits of the case.

    That’s not to say the opposite isn’t also occuring in relation to those that support the lacrosse players – in fact, I suspect that IS happening – so we have to look INSTEAD at the merits of the case, shocking change of strategy though that may seem.

    So what do we know about the facts of this case – and how do they support or refute the allegations therein? Is there likely to exist reasonable doubt in this case?

  21. Betty says:

    money is what the lying hooker was after all this time. Too bad she’s too stupid and dependant on drugs and alcohol too keep her story straight. She’s also a ***** who can’t keep her legs together when there’s money in the room. she’s slime! she’s stupid, she’s an adict! she’s the lowest form of scum on the bottom of a cess pool. no offense to justice58, but crystal is worse than justice58, and maybe a little more dumb.

  22. justice58 says:

    Innocent my ***?

    You know as well as the rest of us that the victim is going to take all of Duke University’s money. Willie Gary is probably waiting in the wing as we speak.

  23. Justice59 says:

    Good! Finally a deep pocket for these boys to sue for restitution. The DA wasn’t just appointed, he was elected by the people, so the people should pay for these boys’ legal fees and other damages associated with being falsely accused of rape which was fabricated by the stripper/hooker and the DA/prostitute.

    It’s a smart move for the innocent boys to wait until found innocent in a criminal court of law before pursuing civil action against the stripper/hooker, the DA, and Durham. Next year it’s not going to be that stripper ***** yelling “Show me the money!”

  24. Justice59 says:

    Good! Finally a deep pocket for these boys to sue for restitution. The DA wasn’t just appointed, he was elected by the people, so the people should pay for these boys’ legal fees and other damages associated with being falsely accused of rape which was fabricated by the stripper/hooker and the DA/prostitute.

    It’s a smart move for the innocent boys to wait until found innocent in a criminal court of law before pursuing civil action against the stripper/hooker, the DA, and Durham. Next year it’s not going to be that stripper ***** yelling “Show me the money!”

  25. justice58 says:

    Who gives a d*mn what you have to say. But, I want YOU to know that Mike Nifong has been ELECTED as Durham’s DA and the duke 3’s azz is his. Mike is going to hang their azz out to dry.

    This you must know:

    The Mike Nifong supporters has been telling you people for months that the election was his to take. Deal with it. Your bad mouthing about Mike Nifong and the victim only added fuel to the fire. You must learn…never kick a victim when they’re down. All your hateful talk has blown back in your face.

    The people have spoken and it was loud and clear. Freda Black is just angry that the people said NO to her.

    Congrats Mike Nifong! The people of Durham love you and respect you.

  26. Justice59 says:

    Wow! now we find out that Nifong didn’t even talk to the stripper/prostitute claiming that she was too traumatized to talk, but she (striper/hooker) continued to work as a nude pole dancer and hooker only days after she claimed she was too traumatized. Maybe she was too busy hooking.

  27. justice58 says:

    Isaac

    The prosecution doesn’t care about your theory, and neither does the victim supporters. Just because I’m not falling for your bs guesssing game doesn’t mean sh*t.

    Yawn Yawn to yourself idiot.

    They will not get away with raping this victim. Mike Nifong has evidence to convict….you only wish that you knew what it is.

    So pander on to rapist. It shows how digusting you are.

  28. Isaac says:

    I just read the last post. I realized I didn’t dumb it down enough for you.

    If there is no time at which an event could possibly have happened, then the event did not happen.

    Example: George Washington died before Martin Luthor King Jr was born. There was no time at which Martin Luthor King Jr could possibly have met George Washington. There was no overlap in their lives.Therefore we know for sure that Martin Luthor King did not meet George Washington.

    Duke case: Every second that RS does not have an alibi from a neutral party, the accuser was in the company of the other dancer. There is no overlapping gap in their timelines, therefore RS did not rape the accuser. No matter how quick you are, you can’t do something in zero time.

  29. Isaac says:

    justice58, thank you for admitting that the accuser is lying and that the rape never happened. That is what you did by refusing to provide any time in which RS could possibly have raped the accuser.

    You weren’t being asked to guess when something happened, you were being asked to provide any single second in which it _could possibly_ have happened. But you couldn’t even do that. Of course neither can Nifong, and he is actually a lawyer, not a wannabe.

    Don’t you ever get tired of being wrong? The article you cited doesn’t say anything about the defense or about anyone new running for DA. It says that some activists want to be ready in case Nifong loses (unlikely, since racism sells).

    You are both boring and dishonest. If anything significant develops I will be back here, but reading your posts is a waste of time.

    Barring significant developments sooner than the end of the case, in the very likely event of the accused either having the charges dropped or acquitted, I will be back to gloat about how wrong you were.

    Because I am a nice guy, and to be fair to you, in the unlikely event of the accused being convicted I will be back to let you gloat.

    You may as well post any feebleminded blather you have for an answer. I might even read it when I come back to post about the next significant development in this case.

    BTW. I don’t consider a change of venue motion or a change of venue significant. Only evidence and admission or exclusion of evidence.

  30. justice58 says:

    Isaac

    Here is the article’s website

    http://www.heraldsun.com/durham/4-774012.html

  31. justice58 says:

    Isaac stop being so silly?

    Why should I make guesses? It won’t do any good to assume. I’m waiting on facts to surface and Mike Nifong has them. Those pages of discovery aren’t just blank pages you know.

    No, the defense hasn’t ask for a change of venue,but we all know that they’re working on it.

    Ain’t gonna happen!

    Let me tell you this… There is news that people from the Cheek campaign are up to lowdown trickery again. They have tried to recruit new people to run for DA and are telling the black people in Durham….Gov. Easley will appoint a black person…..they are telling the white people in Durham…Gov Easley will appoint a white person. This is some crazy BS.

    All these b*st*rds are no good. Mike Nifong will stand his ground. He is a good DA. God bless him.

    Isaac, I’m not worried whatsoever. I do know the victim is telling the truth and nothing but the truth. It’s people like you that have a problem with truth.

    Got to go for now. Search the news about these lowlifes and see what they are trying to do in Durham. I tell you …..they are scared sh*tless.

    No No No…..you are so wrong about me wanting a conviction whether a crime was committed or not. Fact is…. they did it.

  32. Isaac says:

    Wow, you really have nothing. You must know it too since you aren’t even bothering to try to come up with a plausible theory of the crime.

    Fast is one thing. No time at all is another. You still haven’t come up with a single second during the night that RS could have raped the accuser.

    If I were a black facing a racist white jury I would be trying for a change of venue regardless of my innocence. The defense here hasn’t asked for a change of venue yet though, because they are waiting to find out the results of their poll.

    None of that matters. If you don’t come up with a single second that is as good as an admission on your part that you know she wasn’t raped but want these guys convicted anyway.

    The second dancer said they were together from the time of the stripping until they left the house together. The only time they were separated was from some time after 12:20 until 12:30. That includes the time for the accuser to go back to the house, get dragged to the bathroom, allegedly get raped, call the escort service at 12:26, and get back out of the house.

    Being angry about being cheated is not a motive for rape.

    I have nothing to be nervous about, I’m have no connection to anyone in the case. Not the lawyers, not the accuser, not a witness, not the accused, not duke, not any lacross players.

    Pick a second, or it will be clear that you think she is lying but want the white guys convicted anyway.

  33. justice58 says:

    Isaac

    Are you finished? Go take your meds! Calm the f*ck down, baby. It’s getting you no where! There is time for a rape to have happened and it did. Sorry, but you weren’t there Isaac. That’s merely your guess. And it sucks. The dukies finished fast. Remember, they were aroused from the dancing. It didn’t take those p*ss asses long to ***.

    Look…. don’t you see the sweat the defense has. They are trying hard to get the case a change of venue. They know what’s up. Those b*st*rds. If you don’t even like the dukies, why are you so in their corner. They care very little for even people like you. They have no respect for others, period. They want your support because they’re scared. They RAPED her Isaac and now are playing the public with their fantastic lies.

    Look how they treated their neighbors! Who would urinate out of the window with people watching you. I”ll tell you…. sadistic jerks…that’s who.

    Sports Illustrated said…. they have a sense of entitlement. The attitude of…. “I can do whatever I want” because of money. Don’t give a d*mn about their money and how much they have. They are prison bound.

    I am no coward…just not going to waste time betting with you. It’s not my character, baby. I may joke with you about but that’s all.

    You better not be so bold about betting. You most likely will have to pay up and that won’t be pretty.

    One thing…. The 2nd dancer said they were separated at some point and that is enough time for anything to happen. All a person needs is an opportunity and they had one. Don’t forget about motive? They were angry about the money and this was a way of showing her and putting her in her place. It was all about control. Especially a poor black woman. I am right and I know it. Wait and see. Are you nervous because time is running out? Your little rich b*st*rds are going to jail. They should have kept their nose clean and then we wouldn’t have this mess.

  34. Isaac says:

    Oops. I meant “hadn’t left the house until 12:20 and she didn’t go back in until after 12:20″.

  35. Isaac4 says:

    Same Isaac, different computer.

    I didn’t say it took hours. Pick a minute. Pick a single minute from the time the accuser arrived at the house sometime after 11:39 to the time that she left, at 12:30. One single minute. Just one. No, wait. Pick a single second, just one.

    Sorry, but your current guess, after the stripping but before RS caught the cab doesn’t work. The other dancer was with her that whole time. Plus the accuser herself said that the rape didn’t happen until after the strippers had left the house and she had gone back alone. They hadn’t left the house until after 12:20 PM. By which time RS was already in the cab. But thank you for playing. Care to try again?

    Remember, To win this round, all you have to do is come up with a single second when neither the accuser nor RS is accounted for.

    For example, you could pick 11:40:31 PM. Oh, wait, that was before the stripping and the accuser said the rape took place after the stripping.

    You try it. Find one single second in all that time when RS could have raped her.

    If by “The New York Times article” you mean the one by DUFF WILSON and JONATHAN D. GLATER, published August 25, 2006
    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/25/us/25duke.html?pagewanted=7&ei=5088&en=dbae99e86ad43e04&ex=1314158400&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss
    Then nope. Condoms get mentioned in only one paragraph:

    “The woman had initially told doctors and nurses that her attackers had not used condoms, suggesting that there would be a lot of DNA evidence to test. Mr. Nifong later suggested that she might not have noticed the use of condoms, or that the rape exam might have missed some *****. The woman gave differing versions of whether her attackers had ejaculated inside her: she told the sexual-assault nurse she did not know, but she told Officer Himan that she thought one of them had.”

    The woman said “no condoms”. Mr Nifong pulled the “might not have noticed” out of his ***, like the rest of his ideas. The woman told the nurse she didn’t know whether they ejaculated in her.

    Man, if you go delusional over the contents of a newspaper article, you really must know what you are talking about.

    Or is it some other article. Be warned, you will look like an idiot if you claim it is, but can’t provide a link to it. Sorry, like more of an idiot. You already look like an idiot for calling someone a dumbass when you are the one who got the facts wrong, as usual.

    I don’t want the victim to be lying. She just is. As I have said repeatedly, I don’t know, or like, the Duke LAX players. I tend to dislike jocks. But whether I like them or not, that doesn’t change the fact that at least one of them could not have raped her, not even if the rape took one single second. About the others I don’t know for certain, but I do know it couldn’t have happened the way the accuser said it did. Which even you and Nifong are admitting now. With the “did she say 30 minutes, she meant 5, did she say heavy, she meant skinny, etc.”

    If you are so sure that guilty verdicts are coming, why wimp out on making the bet? _I_ know I might lose, but the chances are low enough and the downside low enough that I am not afraid to take the chance. How funny that you, who don’t think you could lose are too much of a coward to take the bet.

    I don’t think I could live with myself if I were such a coward that I wouldn’t take a harmless bet on something I was absolutely certain of.

    LOL

  36. justice58 says:

    Don’t be so silly? Do you think it takes hours to committ a rape. Reade put his **** in her mouth and then hurriedly ran to get on his phone in order to create an alibi. What is boring is your lame *** argument!

    The NYTimes article said the victim told a hospital nurse that she didn’t know if condoms were used. You know the ones that were penetrating her ******…dumb ***.

    Who the f*ck is worried about polygraphs but you d*mn duke supporters? Polygraphs aren’t reliable…moron. That sh*t is done. Stick a fork in it and move the f*ck on.

    Dave Evans beat the polygraph…sooooooo what else is new. Those lying, cheating b*st*rds. You just love lying, women beating rapist. Where the hell is your morals?

    I’m not betting on sh*t. My time is better used watching you make a fool of yourself.

    One thing more… Reade most likey finished very quickly. That don’t surprise me. That’s one thing women hate…. men that *** in about 5 seconds. It’s makes a woman angry and disgusted. Watch yourself baby!!

    Let me tell you this! You and so many others want the victim to be lying so that you can rub in it that the victim was not truthful from the beginning. When hell freezes over! Wait…just wait. Get a grip on your d*mn *** and wait like the rest of us. Guilty verdicts are coming!

  37. Isaac says:

    Actually, the main significance of the polygraphs is that most people don’t know that they are inaccurate. They aren’t reliable enough for court, but most people who volunteer to take one are not planning to lie and most people who refuse to take one are afraid of getting caught in a lie. None of these polygraph tests (or refusals) will come into court, they are just one small pebble in the mountain of evidence against the accuser.

    You are mistaken about the condoms. According to the nurse’s notes, the accuser told her that “They did not use condoms and threatened to kill her if she didn’t comply, the woman said, according to the nurse’s notes.”

    http://www.newsobserver.com/100/story/468272.html

    Note, “did not use” not “did not know if they used”.

    Since she also claimed that one of them “finished” in her mouth and that she spit it out, that is further proof of the lack of condoms.

    Got a source for your statement that she said she “didn’t know”? Or did you just make it up?

    If you are so confident of a guilty verdict, why not make the bet? I am always willing to make an even money bet that the Sun will rise in the (approximate) East tomorrow. It is a bet I figure I will never lose.

    Or are you not so confident as you claim to be? Prosecutors seek convictions all the time, that doesn’t mean they get it. You know very little about the law.

    BTW, you still haven’t provided a single time in the night that RS could have committed a 5 minute rape on the accuser, or a 1 minute rape for that matter.

    You have no arguments, just endless repetition of your unsupported opinion. Boring.

  38. justice58 says:

    Isaac

    There is just no point discussing anything with you. As you said, if they are found guilty, you and so many dumb others will say “Durham corruption as always.

    You just can’t handle the truth. So sad!

    I am going to be in excellent shape now and when the guilty verdict come in. Count on it, there will be a guilty verdict.

    People seek acquittals all the time, but that doesn’t mean they get it. Isaac, I do know about law.

    As for polygraphs… they are worthless sh*t and you know it or you should know it. Why do you think the court doesn’t allow them, Mr Lawyer Man.

    Oh, one more thing… the Victim did not say the accusers didn’t wear condoms….She said she didn’t know IF they did. Get the facts right. Don’t come out half-stepping.

    But if that makes you happy to think that way…knock yourself out and enjoy. Your joy will be soooo short lived.

    The defense is sweating big time and when this case get to the courtroom floor, Mike Nifong is going to make them look like FOOLS. See Ya.

  39. Isaac says:

    Youngster? Thank you. LOL. How old are you, grandma?

    You also don’t know _that_ a rape happened. Again, try saying something to support your argument, instead of bald assertions.

    If you want to convince people the moon is made of green cheese, you have to come up with something better than “I believe the moon is made of green cheese”.

    The LAX players have been consistent in their statements. Their statements fit the evidence. The accused have passed polygraph tests. The accuser or her handlers refuse to have her take one.

    I just wrote a long post detailing why RS’s alibi is still solid as a rock. Read it. Then, if you can’t refute it, then concede the point. You look stupid saying “his alibi has been shot to hell” when there is still no time in the evening where both he and the accuser are unaccounted for.

    Especially since you don’t break an alibi with speculation, you break it with evidence. The DA can speculate that the accuser was wrong, but it is one more thing he has to get a jury to swallow. More convoluted and unlikely story, unsupported by any evidence. Then compared to the simple, uncomplicated, and well supported by evidence notion that the accuser lied again when she said she was raped, just like she admitted to lying when she said it was her first time as a stripper. Frankly, if someone would lie about something that easily checked out, they would lie about anything.

    Mike Nifong isn’t “on their ***” he is eating their dust. He will probably win the election, racial pandering works. But he is almost certainly going to lose in court, since you generally need evidence to win there, and he doesn’t have any credible evidence.

    Why the dog and pony show? Good publicity for the attorneys. Frankly this is a dream case for a defense attorney.

    Step away from this case for a moment (I know you can’t, but maybe other people are reading this) and put yourself in the place of a defense attorney who’s client was in front of an ATM camera during the only time that the alleged victim wasn’t on camera or in the presence of neutral witnesses. If the prosecution wants to go ahead with a case like that, you don’t sweat, you turn cartwheels.

    Prosecutors generally win at trial more than 95% of the time (15 and 1, if that is his actual record, is nothing special for a prosecutor). The reason for that is that prosecutors get to decide whether to prosecute. The defense attorney doesn’t get to decide whether to defend. Most cases that come to trial are because the prosecutor doesn’t want a deal or because the defendant is too dumb to take one in the face of lots of evidence.

    The prosecutors choose the battles, so of course they tend to win them. However, and this is key: when their choice to prosecute comes from politics rather than having enough evidence, they don’t have that advantage anymore.

    So what we have in this case is a prosecutor who is used to holding good cards in court and folding when he has bad ones, in a case where he has bad cards, but can’t fold for political reasons.

    As I said, this is a dream case for the defense. Usually the defense can just argue “reasonable doubt” in the face of a mountain of evidence. Here,
    the defense can argue actual innocence with the mountain of evidence on their side.

    If anyone in this case has tried to taint the jury pool it is Nifong. Making all those statements that he pulled out of his *** like “they could have worn condoms” when the accuser said they didn’t and no physical evidence of condoms was found. Or “they could have slipped her something” when no toxicology report was done that could have shown that. Or, most unethically of all “they must be guilty because they got lawyers”.

    In contrast, everything the defense has put out there has been backed up by solid evidence, in most cases from the prosecution’s own files.

    As I said, they called less than 1% of the adult population. The prosecution knew in advance that they were going to do the poll because the defense told them in advance that they were going to. As I said, you don’t taint a jury pool by telephone.

    BTW, the defense is under no obligation to be fair to the accuser. As far as they are concerned this is a liar and a perjurer trying to railroad their clients. That is another way the defense is different from the prosecution. The prosecutor has an ethical obligation to be fair to the accused.

    Your warning reminds me of a guy with a sign that says “the world will end tomorrow”. His predictions aren’t worth anything either.

    I’m not going to have a fall, hard or otherwise. If the prosecution wins (unlikely), and it holds up on appeal (extremely unlikely) I will chalk it up to southern corruption, shrug and move on.

    OTOH I suspect that in the likely event of an acquittal, your psyche will shatter like an eggshell.

    For your sake I hope the judge kicks out the photo IDs, then you can tell yourself that they got off on a technicality. If it gets to a jury and the jury acquits, well. I was serious about you seeking psychiatric help. It may cushion the blow.

    Tell you what. I will make a bet, if they get off (for any reason, judge, jury, accuser won’t testify, Nifong drops it after teh election, whatever) you go see a shrink. If they get sent to prison. I’ll go see a shrink. If they plead guilty to a lesser offense, no score draw and the bet is off.

  40. justice58 says:

    Isaac

    You have gone off the deep end. I’ll get you some help. I’m willing to help anyone, even you with all your insensitivity and cockyness.

    It was attempted. Don’t bring it up again?

    Poor little Isaac…such a youngster, so naive, so green.

    I serve God because I love him and will all the days of my life. I know that he gave his life for me so that I can and will have eternal life. I do the right things out of love for him and not because of fear. I reverence him and honor his name because he is my saviour. When I sin, I ask for forgiveness.

    I don’t know when the rape happened. Only the duke3 know that. They are LYING about nothing happened and hoping it will go away. Well, hell will freeze over first before this case be dismissed. You gotta be crazy if you think the defense is not sweating it up. And it’s not because of the heat…sunny boy. It’s because of pure frustration that their client’s alibi has been shot to hell. What’ll they do now?? Mike Nifong is on their ***.

    You have got to be kidding about the defense not wanting to taint the jury pool. Please Isaac, be reasonable. Why do you think the defense held all those dog and pony shows? Do you think they just wanted to see themselves on TV??

    Now they’re up to more unethical trickery by calling people in order to cause confusion with potential jurors. They should be removed from this case because they can’t be fair to the victim. Those b*st*rds. You are setting yourself up for a hard fall because the dukes are going to be convicted and sent to prison. They will be found guilty of rape, kidnapping and sexual assault. Don’t say you weren’t warned?? But remember I told you so!

  41. Isaac says:

    justice58, separate from the arguments, and having no part in them. I serously think you should get some psychiatric help. Your responses here seem indicitive of someone still deeply damaged by her own rape.

  42. Isaac says:

    justice58, you are half right about me. I am cocky. I have no fear of God because I do my best to do the right thing. When I screw up, I seek forgiveness.I believe in God, but I would try to do the right thing regardless of whether I did or not. What kind of brown nosing weasel only does the right thing to suck up to God, to avoid Hell or get into Heaven. If you only do the right thing out of fear of punishment or hope of reward, that makes you a pretty crummy person in my view.
    I just don’t think God intervenes in the day to day events of the world. I have seen no evidence of it.

    Of course, your idea of God seems strange to me.
    You have two premises:
    1) God is almighty
    2) He wants them convicted

    So an acquittal would indicate that one of those premises is wrong. Either God is not almighty or he didn’t want them convicted.

    And as it happens, RS’s alibi works better with a 5-10 minute window than a 30 minute window. Before, the prosecution might have claimed that he was there for part of it and then left. Now they can’t even claim that.

    I wish I could take credit for noticing that, but I read it in an opinion piece about the case.

    Also, there is a timeline of the case here:

    http://johnsville.blogspot.com/2006/04/duke-lacrosse-rape-timeline.html

    The accuser never claimed to have stuck around after being raped, so that puts the time of the rape at shortly before the dancers left. Both sides agree that the 911 call about the racial slurs was after they left, it came in at 12:53. The accuser left the house at 12:30 am (timestamped photos) then stumbled down the stairs (time stamped photos). At 12:37 she was passed out on the back porch (time stamped photos). She was helped into a car at 12:41 (time stamped photo).

    RS’s alibi extends to 12:46 AM at his dorm. So that leaves no time for him to get from his dorm to the house and commit the rape before the accuser got into the car.

    But let’s say the story is that the rape took place after the stripping but before RS left the house. Let’s also figure that RS wasn’t in the middle of raping the accuser while calling for a cab. Timestamped photos put the end of the stripping at 12:04 AM. The cab call was at 12:14 AM.

    BTW, before you go all conspiracy theory about timestamps can be changed, the picture included a shot of one of the students’ wrist watch, which matched the time of the timestamp. So unless you are crediting these drunk guys with premeditation and that attention to detail. The stripping ended at 12:04.

    From then until the cab call, RS was making calls on his cellphone. The biggest gap between calls was 2 minutes. So now Nifong has to claim that he was raping her while on the phone. Talk about multi-tasking.

    Oh, and let’s not forget that according to the other dancer, both dancers were together at this point.

    Whether the story is 30 minutes or 5, the sequence of events of the accuser’s story is clear. Stripping, getting upset, leaving, coming back, getting raped, leaving right after that.

    So, accuser left at about 12:20 (statements of neighbor, other dancer). The accuser went back into the house after that, then left at 12:30, (next door neighbor, timestamped photos). So even if the rape took 10 minutes from the time she went into the house to the time she came out. RS has an alibi for that time. In fact, a time stamped ATM photo shows him there at 12:24 AM.

    So lets try wilder theories. Like it wasn’t just the length of the rape she was wrong about, but the whole sequence of events. So the rape happened before she left the house rather than after she went back. OK, now explain the accuser wanting to go back into the house where she had just been raped. Explain her telling the other dancer she wanted to go back because “there is more money to be made”. Or can we assume that she hadn’t been raped at that point?

    Even wilder theory. The rape happened before the stripping. She arrived after 11:39 (accuser’s cell phone records). She gets raped, then does her act as though nothing happened? Plus according to the other dancer, they were together from when the accuser got there until after the stripping.

    What we have are remarkably detailed timelines for both the accuser and one of the defendants. There are no overlapping gaps in their accounted for time.

    But let’s be charitable and say that she was only wrong about one of the defendants and not the other two. The only time when the accuser was apart from the other dancer (and not on timestamped film) was from some time after 12:20 to 12:30. So even if the prosecution drops RS from the case, they are still going to have to claim that the rape took less than 10 minutes, including the time necessary for the accuser to re-enter the house, get pulled to the bathroom, raped in every ******* by three men, make a phone call to her escort service at 12:26 (accuser’s phone records), get her outfit back in order and leave.

    And even that time is only open if the accuser was wrong about how much time the alleged rape took.

    So the whole case comes down to the word of someone who can’t be trusted to get the details right, like, how long it took, whether the other dancer helped in the rape, or whether they were pulled apart, or whether the other dancer wasn’t there, or whether there were 20 guys, or 5 or 3 or no rape at all.

    Nifong’s closing might sound like this:

    “Ladies and Gentlement of the jury, you must find these men guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, despite the lack of any DNA evidence, under circumstances where DNA would almost certainly be there. You must find them guilty despite their time stamped multi-source alibis. You must find them guilty because the accuser was able to pick them out of a lineup, ok not the first two lineups they were in, but the third one, where there were no wrong answers. Because she is honest (except for lying to the police aboutthis being her first time stripping, lying to her parents about being a stripper). Because her perceptions are accurate (except about mustaches, and the amount of time it took and the number of her attackers, and the number of strippers at the part and whether the other dancer helped them, her, or wasn’t involved). And because she had no reason to lie (except that she would have been locked up if she hadn’t claimed rape). But at least her character is sterling (except for stealing that car and trying to kill a police officer).

    If the defense is sweating it could only be because of the weather. I have never heard of a prosecutor going ahead with a case anywhere near this weak.In fact, having looked at the timeline closely, I think an honest prosecutor might be able to get her convicted of the crimes connected with making a false charge. Certainly he would have a better chance of that than Nifong has of getting a conviction here.

    As for tainting the jury pool. You don’t taint a jury pool with a survey that contacts less than 1% of the adult population. You taint it in the media. Nifong spent 70 interviews pissing in the jury pool, the defense is just trying to find out how yellow it is.

    The prosecutor isn’t telling his timeline. When do you think a rape happened?

  43. justice58 says:

    Isaac

    You are one cocky idiot! ….I see you have NO fear of the Almighty God. But that is your right and choice. I feel sorry for you and I really mean that.

    Yes I feel God wants them convicted. You have to obey the law of the land. They committed a rape, which is a crime in this country.

    No, I will never lose faith in God. And there will be no acquittal. That is your dream but it’s not gonna happen.

    Isaac… I have answered your question. I’ll tell you again. NO…. Now don’t ask me again.

    The judge is fair and he will judge according to the law.

    Mike Nifong is soooo confident! He is 15-1. And he is always on top at the end of the day. Such a brilliant DA. The defense is sweating now because RS airtight alibi just got shot to hell. Now, they’re desperating using all kind of trickery to taint the jury pool. If any unethical behavior is proven on their part, they just might be tossed off this case.

    Cheshire and company are shaking in their boots! Mike Nifong warned them for going up against him. They deserve to get what’s coming to them for putting the victim on trial for being raped and trying to discredit Mike Nifong with evil defense spin.

  44. Isaac4 says:

    Same Isaac, different computer.

    I’m not sure whether I have mentioned the bill of particulars, that is why I said “I don’t think I have mentioned” rather than “I have not mentioned”. Unlike some people, I try not to state things as fact when the things aren’t certain. You are welcome to check on that and get back to me.

    For three guys, in an enclosed space, trying to rape someone, the logistics suggest that not taking off their pants would be more time consuming than taking them off. Pants around your ankles you can’t move around well. I suppose it would work for one guy, after knocking someone down. I doubt it would work for three, raping someone in every *******.

    As for “therefore there was no rape” and “it doesn’t take 30 minutes to rape someone”. For a man to rape a woman, I would buy 5-10 minutes. For three men to rape a woman in every *******, in a small bathroom, while leaving no DNA behind? Puh-lease.

    The only reason Nifong says “10 minutes” is because one of the victims, excuse me, accused, has an alibi. If he didn’t have an alibi, Nifong would be sticking to the half hour story. If his alibi had no gaps longer than a minute, Nifong would probably be claiming it took under a minute.

    Interesting story on the James Randi web site. About someone who got struck by lightning, Resulting in burns, permanent deafness and partial blindness. Her sister, a medical person, revived her. The response of the victim was to thank God for saving her life. Personally, I would have said, “If you were ready to go to all the trouble of resurrecting me from the dead, couldn’t you have had the lightning bolt hit 30 feet away from me instead? Less effort on your part, less damage to me”.

    As for what are the odds of the phone call reaching Mike Nifong’s wife, I read they interviewed 300 people. The adult population of Durham is (according to online source) about 144,000. Odds would be one in 480 they would talk to her. Then figure that to get 300 responses, they probably talked to about 1200 people (the other 900 being “I’m busy”, just a guess here as to the percentage of “busy”), and you drop to about 1 in 120. Then realize that those are the approximate odds of talking to her specifically. Then realize that we would be having almost the same conversation if they had talked to any of Nifong’s relatives or friends, any of the people in the DA’s office, any of their relatives, etc (maybe 60 people all told), and the chances of them talking to someone within a degree or two of separation from Nifong himself is probably about 50-50.

    You are pretty typical of people who see coincidences as always being significant. The problem is that if there are a million things that you would say (after the fact) were a million to one coincidence, the chances of at least one of them happening is pretty high. Think of when you meet someone that you know in an airport by chance. Odds of that specific meeting with that specific person on that specific day are low. Odds that at some time you will meet someone you know at an airport are pretty high.

    BTW, you still haven’t answered the question about whether you think the judge will toss the photo lineup IDs.

    If you think God is behind this coming out…

    1) Do you think God wants them convicted?
    2) Will you lose faith in God if the accused are acquitted?

  45. justice58 says:

    Isaac

    Why the hell does a person have to get out of their pants in order to rape someone?? Let me give you a tip! THEY DON’T!

    The supporters of the victim has always said that she probably THOUGHT the rape was 30 minutes long. That is what trauma does to a person. Those b*st*rds are getting closer to their punishment. The defense is lowlife jerks who will find any form of trickery they can to twist the truth and have the case moved out of Durham because they’re scared.

    NO NO baby… Mike Nifong is NOT desperate. He is just plain SMART. He is got the defense on the run. All that money being paid to only go down the tube. Such a sad story on their part.

    You know…. the way I see this….God uncovered what they did. Everything will be brought to light. What were the odds that the phone call would be to Mike Nifong’s wife. How about that? You just can’t make sh*t up like this.

    After this case is over….the egg will start to stink on your face…baby.

    The only thing I hate is that we can’t watch the hearings on the tube. D*mn… I hate that!

    Oh yes….are you sure that you didn’t mention the “Bill of Particulars”. I’ll have to check back and read your posts.

    “I’ve never taken that little time and that was with enthusiastic (or at least consenting) partners helping and with plenty of space.” What?? I WOULD HOPE NOT.

    And that means?? Therefore there was no rape!!
    Are you kidding me?? Pleeeeease! Isaac be reasonable. It does not take 30 minutes or an hour in order to rape a person. Those lying b*st*rds did it and thought they could get away with it. Not so smart as they thought!

    Once more…..Mike Nifong is a d*mn good DA and he will get a conviction.

  46. Isaac says:

    What crazy rantings? Read the article yourself. The woman in the story the link goes to has admitted that she accused someone of gang rape because she wanted a free ride home from the police. She just got sent to prison for it too. That isn’t proof that the accuser in the Duke case lied, but it does make it clear that anyone who argues that no women ever lie about rape or that no woman would lie about rape without a good reason is mistaken. Or do you think getting a free ride home from the police is a good reason to falsely accuse someone of gang rape?

    I haven’t been slapped down. I’m not one of the defense lawyers. I don’t think I have even mentioned the bill of particulars. I think the defense probably got what they wanted just by having that one reported. Every time a story on the bill of particulars comes out, it includes the fact that the accuser changed her story several times.

    Personally, I disapprove of litigating in the court of public opinion.

    Though the actions of the DA are far worse. It is outrageous that a public official, particularly a lawyer should try to undermine the Constitutional right to an attorney by saying that only guilty people hire attorneys. (I just read about his statements on that today).

    If he did it in court, that would be a mistrial on the spot. I’m a stickler for legal ethics, I think a prosecutor who does that in the press should be suspended from practicing law for at least a month.

    Back to court:

    I do find it hillarious that as proof comes in that the original story is impossible, Nifong contorts his story to be less credible over all but to avoid the proof. He makes up his story like a child changes a lie that isn’t working. If anyone is desparate it is Nifong.

    Let’s see. 5-10 minutes in a tiny bathroom, with a struggling woman, average of 1 minute 40 seconds to 3 minutes each. And that includes the time to get out of their pants, while holding her down, in a small bathroom.

    I’ve never taken that little time and that was with enthusiastic (or at least consenting) partners helping and with plenty of space.

    I also love the little thing slipped into the report detailing the belated handover of evidence to the defense. I don’t know whether you noticed the “handwritten notes from the mental health facility center”. I guess these would be the handwritten notes that Nifong was denying the existence of as recently as Tuesday.

    I have no doubt that Nifong’s wife was called at random, and by a polling firm, not by the defense directly. The defense has no reason to include her in the survey. In fact, if they had been asked before hand, they would have said “hell no, don’t call anyone connected with the DA, we don’t want him whining about it to the judge”.

  47. justice58 says:

    Isaac

    just shut up with the crazy rantings!

    I”m sure you’ve heard the judge’s ruling on the bill of particulars. Poor Isaac…. slapped down again!

    Oh yes… the sorry assed defense is up to dirty rotten trickery again. Of all things……… having someone calling Mike Nifong’s wife. Desperation is truely showing on their part. Those sorry b*st*rds.

    I have been a little under the weather for past days. But I’m back now and have to catch up on all the details.

  48. Isaac says:

    To the “why would someone lie about being gang raped” file, add “to get a free ride home from police officers”.

    http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0200wales/tm_objectid=17775143&method=full&siteid=50082&headline=sentence-welcomed-for-girl-who-cried-rape-name_page.html

  49. Isaac says:

    Once again, justice58, you engage in answering a question other than the one that was asked. You should drop that habbit if and when you ever have to testify, it makes you look thoroughly dishonest.

    The question was not whether you think this case _will_ go on, it was whether you think the case _would_ go on if the judge excludes the accuser’s photo ID and in court ID.

    1) I’m not a mind reader, so this is just a possible answer. I ate at a restaurant a while back. I ordered one thing, they brought me another. Rather than sending it back and waiting for them to bring me what I ordered, I had what they brought. I don’t know whether they ordered white strippers or not, but if they did, it may have been a preference, rather than “white or nothing”. Then, rather than call and demand what they ordered, they agreed to the substitution. Either way, it doesn’t matter for the case, whether they ordered a black stripper or a white one, the evidence that would be there if they had had *** with her, either consensual or forced, isn’t there.

    As for “she seemed drunk”, they weren’t looking for someone to tutor them in partial-differential calculus or drive them in a car, they were looking for someone to strip. I don’t know if she seemed drunk when she arrived, two 20 ounce beers (which she admitted to drinking) might not get her drunk enough to seem it. Of course, when combined with 1 1/2 large cocktails, that might be enough to get her drunk. Either way, “the stripper is drunk” would not be enough reason to send her packing.

    2) I have met people who turned out to be high on drugs, it wasn’t immediately apparent. Even after half an hour or so of conversation, I thought they might be having a manic episode (i.e. be a manic-depressive). Again, they were not looking for someone to be coherent, just take her clothes off. That is something that most people, even on drugs, can manage.

    I guess those two questions are typical of how a paranoid sees the world. They see something with a perfectly innocent explanation and seize on it as proof of a conspiracy.

    I probably wouldn’t offer a drink to someone I wanted gone, if I wanted them gone at the time I offered them the drink. I have offered a drink to someone I decided later that I wanted gone.

    I don’t know whether there were any drugs in her system. I know they tested her hair, but I don’t know what they tested it for. AFAIK alcohol doesn’t show up in tests of hair. I do know that they didn’t do a toxicology test when she showed up at the hospital. They should have, it would have gotten a bit more of the truth, whether the truth was booze, her drug use, or someone slipping her a mickey.

    Something causing you to go from walking to needing to be helped in a few minutes… Yeah, it’s called “alcohol” and “having the booze hit you”.

    Whether the defense was hoping for a history of drugs or not, whether she had a history of drugs or not, those are not relevant to the case.

    Whether your clients are guilty or innocent, you want the witnesses against them to be less credible. I guess if the ID’s don’t get excluded, the defense will just have to bring up the fact that she lied about this being her first time stripping, or her multiple stories, or her inability to pick two of the defendants out of two fair lineups (that didn’t include the third defendant) before picking them out of a rigged lineup. Oh, or her criminal convictions. They probably won’t bring up the fact that she lied to her family about what she did for money though. They probably would bring up the fact that when she said she was raped, it was that or be locked up.

    As for whether she actually used drugs, that doesn’t really matter for the case. Whether she was using drugs that night might be, but a history of drug use would not.

    I think you are still torturing facts to fit your blind faith in the accuser. As for what the judge will decide on on Sept. 22, I don’t know. Possibly nothing. He may take briefs, listen to oral arguments, then put deciding off until later.

  50. justice58 says:

    Isaac

    I’m speaking of Kirk Osborn (defense attorney)
    When Osborn doesn’t get a ruling the way he wants….he keeps after the judge. That is what he did with Judge Stevens and Judge Titus. At the last hearing Judge Titus became very annoyed with him and had to raise his voice a bit. At the hearing before that, Judge Stevens told him this case won’t be fast tracked. The judges get a little annoyed at the defense because it seems they don’t like to hear the word NO.

    Yes Isaac….I believe this case will keep going. It’s going to trial and there is no question about it.

    Isaac… Cash Michaels brought up some very interesting things in his last article. Listen at this.

    1. If the dukies didn’t want black dancers
    Why did they let the dancers enter the home and knowning that she seemed drunk (she wasn’t drunk)

    2. The dukies said the victim was maybe high on drugs and had cuts on her.
    Why did they invite the dancers in and offer drinks.

    Does that sound like someone wants a person gone?? Offering drinks?? You do not offer drinks to someone that you want gone!

    As we know… there was no substance of drugs in her system. Could it be…. they were hoping that she did drugs so the public could think less of her credibility.

    One more thing….. The victim went back into the house to get her shoe and she was walking under her own power. Minutes later…she had to be carried or helped to the car.

    Something had to cause walking under your own power to falling down helpless within a matter of minutes.

    The defense was hoping for a history of drugs use and they thought it would be hard drugs. And POOF….nothing!

    What do you think? And what (ALL) do you think the judge is going to make a decision about at this next hearing?

  51. Isaac says:

    P.S. Please explain who Osborn is and what “can’t take no for an answer” means in this context. I am not familiar with your reference.

  52. Isaac says:

    I’m not a side. Nor am I on a side. I go where the evidence leads.

    If the judge lets in the photo ID under these circumstances, it would be reversible error (reversible error means a significant enough error to get the case overturned on appeal, as opposed to harmless error). The question is whether the judge will a) realize this, and b) would rather kcik out the evidence now than pass the buck to the appeals court.

    Judges don’t like to be overturned on appeal. It makes them look bad. OTOH, I think judges in Durham are elected, so politics may play a role. I would say it is more likely than not that the judge will toss this photo-lineup.

    The in court identification is less certain. Not sure about NC, but in at least some jurisdictions, an In court IDs can be allowed after a tossed lineup if the judge is convinced that the in court ID is genuine and not affected by the tainted lineup.

    That is unusual though. A blind man could ID the defendant from the witness stand, if he knows where the defendant is sitting ( usually at about 2 o’clock).

    It has lead to some classic TV moments when the defense pulls a switcheroo and has someone who resembles the defendant sit at the defense table and the defendant sit anonymously in the gallery. In real life, a lawyer who pulled that would be in a hell of a lot of trouble with the judge. Personally, I think if you are going to do an in court ID, the defense should be allowed to bring in seven guys who look like the defendant and make a real lineup of it. In court IDs are pretty phony otherwise. I suppose if I were defending and was stuck with one, I would call anybody I could who had not met the defendant to the stand and say “can you identfy the defendant”. Or just say to the jury in the closing “of course he could pick out the defendant in a courtroom. You have never seen the defendant and you were able to pick him out”.

    Seriously though. I am really curious about this next bit. Assuming for the sake of argument that the judge tosses the lineup and doesn’t allow the in court ID, do you think the case would keep going?

  53. justice58 says:

    Isaac

    I don’t know
    From what I’ve read about this judge is that he is a no nonsense judge. He is going to follow the law and give everyone a fair shake. As you know, both sides agreed to this judge. Just don’t start complaining when he rules the opposite of what you think. He is not going for BS either. And that is the way it should be.

    One more thing: I do predict that he is NOT going to fall for Osborn’s whining and BS.

    All of Osborn’s… “can’t take no for an answer” sh*t.

  54. Isaac says:

    justice58, so you don’t have any predictions about whether the judge will allow the photo-linup in or whether the judge will allow an in court ID by the accuser?

  55. justice58 says:

    BF

    You’re a d*mn nasty, ugly, fat, disgusting bald faced liar!! You are a freak of nature and no one loves you or desire you, so you go to the computer for companionship. You’re a sick lonely b*st*rd that belong in the bottomless pit of hell. In the real world you are not important and no one gives a d*mn about you. The only enjoyment you have is the computer where you seek out revenge on others that don’t agree with you and others who wipe their feet on your @$$ everyday. I join those people and spit on you and use you to no end, because you are a worthless piece of sh*t.

    Don’t respond to me anymore from this day forward.

  56. Betty Friedan says:

    NoJustice58 you’re still a laugh.

    NoJustice58 posted: “Or, if I win, you would have to go to the ghetto in Durham and shout to the top of your lungs….The dukies are guilty! How about that??huh! ”

    Isn’t that what you’ve been doing all this time? You’ve been acting no less than a monkey jumping and screaming while chasing a peanut. You make alot of noise, and people may look, but you’re only a monkey so no one takes you seriously. They just keep throwing you peanuts and watch you go nuts. When are you planning to evolve?

    BTW…The stripper confessed to lying about being raped.

  57. Betty Friedan says:

    I found this post from a “Madam Krystal” and it’s probably closer to the real story of what happened

    The stars, planets, and moon reveal what really happened the night a stripper destroyed the lives of 47 boys.

    This is what I channeled from a lying criminal stripper with a substance problem.

    I guess it happened years ago. I started having *** at a very early age. I’m not sure why, I just wanted to. When I was still in high school, I was in competition with myself to see how many boys I could have *** with in a week. I became quite self educated in the subtle differences there are in each boys genitalia.

    Guys who looked like they were packing huge equipment sometimes where packing “happy meal” toys, while guys you would least expect would be packing man-size equipment that would make any girl’s mouth water and pusy sweat.

    One day I had *** with three boys in the bathroom of my boyfriend’s house, and I immediately got a reputation f being easy. That reputation was a double edged sword. On the positive side, I got more guys than ever, but on the negative side everyone knew. Even in this age of “equal rights” girls still suppose to not like having ***. Strangely, feminist are the ones perpetuating this myth. A feminist friend of mine told me if I claimed I was raped, I could redeem myself and reputation. I could blame my avid hunger for *** on “being abused at an early age”. She even suggested that I claim I was raped by my father. My reputation would be instantly vindicated as I enjoyed all the powers and benefits of being a “victim”.

    Years later when I was being dishonorable discharged from the Navy for having *** with over half the men and few of the women in my squad, I claimed I was raped, but since many of my sexcapades were video taped, I didn’t want to risk being caught in a lie because I couldn’t remember which guys and gals video taped me and which ones didn’t, so I made a claim in 1996 that I was raped by three boys when I was in high school.

    It was tough living the lie, and I wasn’t interested in being in the Navy anymore. A friend told me I could make tons of money by marrying a man, having his child, then leaving him forcing him to pay child support which can take up to 60% of his net pay. If I had children from three different guys, I could collect over one thousand dollars of tax free child support each month for 18 years, but that plan fell through because I married a loser who found out I gave birth to another man’s child while married to him. My ex-husband tried to gain custody of my child, but I didn’t want to pay child support to him, so in 1998 I claimed that he kidnapped me and tried to kill me.

    I’ve been a stripper/prostitute/escort for awhile now, and I’ve been taking a few classes at UCNC in hopes to recruit a few girls of my own to pimp out. One night in 2002 I was having a particular good night, so I partied a little too hard, gave a public lap dance to a cab driver, when he wouldn’t have *** with me in exchange for cab fare, I stole his cab, and when the cops tried to stop me, I tried to kill them. I’m still on probation for that little incident.

    Earlier this year in 2006, I was working my *** off – literally! I had *** with a “client”, then with my boyfriend, then with a battery vaginal *** toy, then with two guys in exchange for a ride to the lacrosse party. The boys were pissed because I arrived so wasted. I had my routine party drugs that evening and I was feeling grrrrrreate! I stumbled all over the place, and after five minutes I wanted to leave. After why not? I already was paid. My stripper friend, “K”, was arguing with the boys over us taking the money without providing a show. She called them racial slurs and they responded in kind, but to get them back, she called 911 and lied claiming that we were only driving by and racial slurs were being yelled at us. We laughed and laughed that the 911 –people could be so stupid.

    I was so wasted that I forgot my money and phone at the boys’ house, but the $400.00 “K” didn’t want to slpit her take with me, so she called the cops to have me arrested. I drank the last of my booze and took the last of my party drugs so the cops wouldn’t atke it. By the time the cops arrived I was feeling “fffffffine!” And that’s when it hit me! I was being arrested for … oh I forgot, but to get out of it I claimed rape. That always works. I was surprised they believed me. My story was wild and a fantastic fantasy, but I had no evidence to back it up. I only had a little scratch on my knee from when I fell when I was totally wasted, and a little scrape on my ankle. The doctor and the nurse checked my pusy. I really enjoyed that. I’m thinking of having pap smears every week. I love laying there naked with my legs up and cold metal probes are inserted into my ******. I must have had four orgasms just waiting there.

    The local DA, he’s such a loser, wanted so badly to get elected that he cherry picked every piece of evidence to make a case. All he cared about was making national news. He said it was better than ***, and I would agree. In college, the DA should have spent less time with his head in books, and more time learning how to please a woman. You’d figure a white man with such a small ***** would make up the difference with some kind of technique.

    It’s amazing how feminist groups and racist groups are fast to jump on cases like this. I figure I can make bucks on the movie right alone. I thin it’s a laugh how news anchors like Nancy and Wendy twist and stretch any evidence or story to make sure people believe a rape actually occurred, but when someone points out that the evidence proves the rape didn’t really exist, both Nancy and Wendy claim that others are twisting and stretching the evidence. Talk about the kettle calling the pot black. Nancy and Wendy are my heroes. They have no integrity and that’s probably how they got where they are. Girls like Nancy, Wendy, and me should stick together. Using victimhood as a weapon and tool for personal gains will get us rich! I kinda feel sorry for those boys though, but you can’t make an omelet without breaking a few eggs.

    Astrology has the answer and truth.

  58. Isaac says:

    I never bet on what a judge or jury will do, too unpredictable. I know what the law says the judge should do, but whether the judge will do it or not is anybody’s guess. Out of curiosity though, what would I have gotten if I won?

    BTW, I am not sure whether I was clear above. I wasn’t asking what you think the chances that she will want to testify are. I was asking what you think the chances are that the judge will exclude the photo-lineup identification. And what you think the chances are that the judge will bar the accuser from saying “the defendants are the ones that raped me”. Any predictions on those?

    I am not sure how much courtroom lingo you know, so just in case “exclude” in legal terms means that the judge, without the jury present, sometimes even before the jury is picked, says to one side or the other “this piece of evidence may not be shown to the jury, nor may you tell them about it.

  59. justice58 says:

    Or, if I win, you would have to go to the ghetto in Durham and shout to the top of your lungs….The dukies are guilty! How about that??huh!

  60. justice58 says:

    Yeah I’ll bet you

    Lets see….how about if the victim testifies that the dukes are the ones that raped her. OK. The bet…lets say I get to punch you if I win because you have been a total jackass and I get to string your name out as mud. (your real name)

  61. Isaac says:

    “accused’s house”, not “accuser’s house” above.

  62. Isaac says:

    For the insanity thing, I still am not sure what you mean, but if you mean the part about it being unethical to prosecute someone you know is guilty when you also know you don’t have admissible evidence to convict them, go read something about legal ethics.

    A prosecutor can bring a case ethically only if he both believes the defendant is actually guilty _and_ he believes he has enough evidence to convince a reasonable jury beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant is guilty.

    To take an extreme (in facts, not in law) hypothetical, suppose you have a serial killer who killed 30 people. The police break down his door without a warrent or other legitimate reason (such as probable cause plus exigent circumstances). They search the place and find videotapes labled “my murders”. They watch the tape and see the guy killing the 30 people, on tape, clear shots, no question it is him. They find bloody clothes and the knives that he used, and a diary in his own handwriting that describes each murder.

    Here is the really unlikely part, the only other evidence against him is that he was seen in the restaurant where the last victim had lunch and he sat across from her, staring at her.

    That last bit is unlikely because most violent crimes are going to have evidence somewhere besides the accuser’s house.

    OK, so, clearly guilty guy. Evidence up the yin yang. Problem is the evidence all gets excluded because of the warentless search.

    All the admissible evidence is now the guy staring at the last victim in a restaurant. Not even close to enough to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

    Under the rules of ethics, anywhere in America, it would be unethical for the prosecutor to prosecute the guy for murder.

    If you don’t believe me, go look it up.

    Now, in real life, it is very rare for all the evidence to be excluded. In the Miranda case for example (where we get the “Miranda warning” from), Miranda’s conviction based on his confession was tossed out, he was then re-tried based on other evidence and was again convicted.

    Nifong may well win the election. It wouldn’t be the first time someone rode racism to victory. Though it is an amusing twist on it this time.

    Nifong will almost certainly lose at trial. Other (less likely) posibilities are having the case dismissed, or overturned on appeal. The least likely probability is that the defendants will be convicted and it will hold up on appeal.

    As for money and high priced lawyers not being able to get a person off, see OJ, Michael Jackson, Robert Blake etc.

    And there was a lot more admissible evidence against those guys than there is against the defendants in the Duke case.

    Actually, the quote “she’s just a stripper” is not from the accused, but from other lacross players. It also wasn’t in the context of “no one will believe her”. It was in the context of, “there is nothing untoward about that half naked woman being helped into the car”.

    The real truth will never be known for certain. All we have, all we can have, are reasonable inferences from the evidence. The evidence makes it more likely that she is lying about being raped than that they raped her.

    Rape is a terrible crime, so is falsely accusing someone of rape. So either way, someone has committed a terrible crime. The evidence makes it more likely than not that it was the accuser.

    You still haven’t made a single post with anything more than your opinion in it, or the fact that other people who also have no facts to back up their opinion also have blind faith in the accuser.

    Faith is great for Church, not so great for Court.

    I hope you will stick around after the trial. In the likely event of an acquittal, it will be interesting to see your rationalizations about it being a big conspiracy about why they got off.

    BTW, any bets on whether the photo-lineup ID will be admitted into evidence? Or whether the accuser will be allowed to testify that the defendants are the ones who raped her?

  63. justice58 says:

    Who ever gave you a law degree needs to be horse-whipped?? On the other hand…. I pity you.

    Good news: A group has formed to rally support to reelect Mike Nifong. They are registering people to vote and getting people involved. “Way to go Victoria and Kim”.

    Let it be known: Mike Nifong is going to WIN on election day and the voters are locking it in for him,

    Mike Nifong will get a conviction so that these criminals will not be allowed to beat, rape, sodomize or dehumanize any woman again.

    It will be made known that MONEY and HIGH PRICED LAWYERS can’t get a person off…period.

    They tried to reduce her to less than a human…remember the words…”she’s just a stripper”. They implied that she doesn’t matter….no one will believe her. So much for their logic.

    The real truth will come out and a jury will find them guilty on ALL counts.

  64. justice58 says:

    Why don’t you figure that one out??? I will ask again….Are you “insane”?

  65. Isaac3 says:

    justice58, you’ll have to be more specific. What in particular do you object to that makes you ask that?

  66. justice58 says:

    Isaac

    Are you “insane”???

  67. Isaac says:

    Oh, the other thing it has to do with it is that it demonstrates that the Durham D.A.’s office is willing to prosecute cases that it knows it can’t win. Which kind of destroys the fig leaf that Nifong’s supporters had, that “he wouldn’t try to prosecute if he didn’t have a case”.

    Incidentally, prosecuting a case you know you can’t win is unethical, even when you think the accused did it. In fact, prosecuting a case you know you can’t win is unethical even if you have proof that the defendant did it, but can’t get that proof in for some reason.

  68. Isaac says:

    This was another case where Nifong ordered that an obviously innocent person be prosecuted. A purely spiteful prosecution against a disinterested witness in the Duke case.

    A prosecution brought solely to try to force someone to change his testimony in the Duke case, or to attempt to discredit the witness. It is part of a patern of corruption that has tainted this case from the beginning.

    The fact that he had one of his people prosecute the case, not wanting to stoop to prosecuting a misdemenor case himself, doesn’t make it any less his decision to to it. Nor does it excuse the unethical abuse of power.

    Prosecuting an innocent man just so you can discredit his testimony on behalf of other apparently innocent men you are prosecuting is a reprehensible abuse of his office.

  69. justice58 says:

    Mike Nifong was not the prosecutor in this case and what has THIS case got to do with the DUKE RAPE CASE. You are grasping for something in order to throw at Mike Nifong. Just pitiful. Find something interesting to talk about and them I’ll talk otherwise….B.O.R.I.N.G…..Y.A.W.N.

  70. Isaac says:

    One Nifong victim (the cab driver) acquitted, three to go.

  71. Isaac says:

    I keep talking to you because it is interesting to watch the contortions someone will go through when they don’t have a leg to stand on, but are irrationally certain of a conclusion that is contradicted by the evidence.

    I see no need to throw her under a bus. In a prison cell for perjury would be nice, but that is highly unlikely, as long as she sticks to her lies. Your irrational belief in her is of no consequence. You have no reason why any rational person should believe her.

    One of the funniest things about you is your circular reasoning. “I believe her because she needs support. I know she needs support because I believe her”.

    I doubt one person in ten who is aware of the fact of this case believes her story. Go to those without a racial or gender axe to grind (unlike you) and the number is probably more like one in a hundred.

    She may well be in the courtroom. Unlike you, I don’t deal in absolute certainties (certainty about things that are not proven is the halmark of a bigot, not a reasoning person). I (like her father) just think that she also might not be in the courtroom. If she is in the courtroom, it is highly unlikely that she will tell the truth about that night. Because she almost certainly made up the story of being raped that night.

    I notice you still can’t even theoretically conceive of what evidence we would see if she were lying about being raped.

    As for insults, all I have done is point out that you still have not provided a single reason why anyone else should believe her. Try it, just for a change. Try writing a post that doesn’t simply assume the point you are trying to make. A post that doesn’t include “I believe” or “I feel” or “I support” or “I stand with”.

    Your personal opinions carry no weight in convincing people other than yourself. Nor for that matter to the opinions of other bigoted or uninformed people, either supporters of the accuser or supporters of the accused. The argument “I beleive them because they are rich and white and she is poor and black” is no more nor less convincing than your “I don’t believe them because they are rich and white and she is black and poor.”.

    A bunch of people support her, a bunch of people support the accused. The truth would be the truth whether everyone supported her or everyone supported them or somewhere in between.

    All that matters in convincing rational people are the facts. We know your opinion, you write it in every post. Boring, boring, boring. Try coming up with facts.

    As for “no human being should be raped” you must tell me where you get all the straw you use to make your strawman arguments. No one here has suggested that anyone should be raped. Other than you, I don’t think anyone here cares that she is a stripper.

    Those are red herrings. No one here thinks the accuser should have been raped, the issue is whether or not she _was_ raped. And as I said, your opinion isn’t going to convince anyone. Just the facts.

  72. justice58 says:

    I never said that I knew her better! Are you insane?? I heard some reporter say that’s what the mother said. They probably knew the first attackers parents. That is not so unusual.

    Why do you continue to talk to me? I’m getting pretty sick of your nasty insults. There is a thing called….agree to disagree. If you can’t talk without being nasty and insulting then I’ll stop talking to you just like I did Stef. I want no conversation with her at all. The same applies to you. Stop being such a jerk and act like you are human. OK…Isaac.

    I don’t know the victim personally but I don’t have to in order to stand with her and support her. She is in need of support after going through such a horrible thing. I have compassion for her, it’s simple as that. There are so many people in support of her that you would not believe. We’re united together and no one can make us turn our backs on her. No Isaac, not one person.

    No human being should be raped . If she choose to take her clothes off and dance naked, that is her business. Even though I don’t approve, I am not going to condemn her. You want people to throw her under the bus but they’re not…. Isaac. And, one thing more. The trial is not until spring , but just watch, she will be in that courtroom ready to tell all what happened on that night.

  73. Isaac says:

    justice58, I don’t care whether she testifies. Though for the integrity of the legal system, I hope the judge supresses the tainted identification.

    As for trying to talk people out of bringing charges. If your son were being falsely accused of rape, wouldn’t you try to talk the person accusing him out of comitting perjury against your son?

    I am getting a good laugh out of you. You really are claiming that you know the accuser better than her father does. Hilarious.

  74. justice58 says:

    Oh Isaac

    Your desperation is showing! You want so much for her not to testify. Isaac she will testify so stop hoping and wishing. The reason she didn’t go through with the first case is that the police told her that it would be hard to prove and some of her attackers were already in prison. Another thing is the mother said at least one of the accused’s parents tried to talk to them about not bringing charges. Plus the victim was afraid for her life. Look at what is happening now with her. People making death threats, harassing her, calling her names. Stupid People.

    I don’t think the dad always give the right information. Sometimes he gets confused. It is like that with some old people. I can understand that. He just loves his daughter like any other father.

    The victim was a young girl back then when the first rape happened, she is now a grown woman and can handle herself better.

    You people sit everyday and twiddle your thumbs wishing this case will go away but NOT.

  75. Isaac says:

    justice58, interesting that you, who don’t know the accuser (as far as we know) are certain she will testify while her father isn’t:

    http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/060904fa_fact

    “Her father, who had speculated that she might not be up to testifying in a criminal case, said this month that he had not seen her since June.”

    Also, that you are so sure she would not lie about having been raped, but again, her father isn’t. “”Other press accounts revealed that a decade ago she’d made an earlier rape allegation that wasn’t pursued (her father now said that it was falsely made)”

    Of course, since he did only raise her, while you have actually read about her, you obviously know her better than her father does.

  76. justice58 says:

    Isaac

    Use that tiny little brain of yours sometimes!

    Your quote: Of course, when the case gets tossed, the accuser drops it, or the jury acquits, you will still insist that she was raped.

    This case won’t be dropped baby. As a matter of fact…. it has strengthen even more. The sad part is you’re in denial. Isaac..hoping and wishing doesn’t make things happen.

    You had better save all that energy for judgement day in Durham, when the guilty verdict comes in. I don’t know who is worse… You or Dukie Dan.

    Dan was beside himself on tucker today. He is caught up and is about to split some blood vessels. As for Tucker… It’s simple…. I hate him. Even Tucker’s face was priceless today…. discussing the Times article.

    The Times did the right thing by reporting the truth!

    All you duke backers got an eye full from the Times article. Go NYTimes!

  77. Isaac says:

    Or is it that? Maybe you just think that someone who hires strippers deserves to go to prison, regardless of whether they raped anyone.

  78. Isaac says:

    Oh, and we haven’t been beating up, or even criticizing someone that suffered a savage and brutal rape (at least not at that party). We have been criticizing the non-credible story of someone who claims to have been savagely raped, yet has no evidence to back it up.

    Heh, I still can’t get over the fact that you think hiring strippers is such a monsterous act that someone who does it must be a rapist, but trying to kill a police officer, stealing a car, and breaking wedding vows mean that someone is so upright and moral that they never lie.

    See a shrink, seriously, you have enough issues to start a magazine.

  79. Isaac says:

    justice58, the truth has smacked you so often you probably have a concussion.

    You keep asserting these statements like “This woman went through pure hell in that house” as though it was an uncontradicted fact, rather than just being her story, when the only support for that statement is the accuser’s word.

    You are such a bigot that anything a black woman says is incorporated into your mind as though you saw it yourself. Do you think black women never lie?

    Mike Nifong was only stating his opinion. He hasn’t changed his mind, so obviously nothing he has seen has changed his mind, duh.

    Of course, one reason he hasn’t seen anything to change is mind is that
    when you stick your fingers in your ears, close your eyes and yell “NYAHNYAHNYAH I’m not listening” when someone tries to show you evidence that contradicts your opinion, you probably aren’t going to see any.

    Mike Nifong may not have your ability to be blind to contradictory facts, so he makes sure he doesn’t see them. That is a really stupid attitude for a trial lawyer. It is one reason why, on the rare occasions prosecutors lose, they are stunned.

    Of course, it isn’t uncommon in prosecutors. There have been cases where prosecutors have gotten convictions for murder or rape, later DNA or other evidence proved that someone else committed the crime, and the prosecutors still thought the innocent man they convicted was guilty.

    Of course, when the case gets tossed, the accuser drops it, or the jury acquits, you will still insist that she was raped.

  80. justice58 says:

    Isaac

    Quote from Isaac: “I can’t say for certain she wasn’t raped.”

    Poor little Isaac: Still living in denial. Wake up and get a grip of yourself. Does the truth really have to smack you one time in order for you to see clearly?

    This woman went through pure hell in that house and the dukes have the audacity to call her a fantastic liar.

    This is why Mike Nifong said ” None of the ‘facts’ I know at this time, indeed, none of the evidence I have seen from any source, has changed the opinion that I expressed initially”.

    He knew what he had and stood his ground.

    Isaac… when this case is over and the verdict comes in as a guilty verdict. All of you including Betty Friedan, Stef, Mixophn, Sundance and the rest will have to live with the idea that you people beat up on a woman that suffered a savage and brutal rape. Oh that’s really impressive…….kick a person while they’re down.

    Shame on you!

  81. Isaac says:

    justice58, as for my wife and girlfriend, let’s leave them both out of this. (just kidding, I am single at the moment). Seriously though, your husband could be accused of rape and the prosecution might take it seriously despite the lack of evidence. It is highly unlikely that a women (my hypothetical wife or girlfriend) would be accused of rape, and prosecuted in the absence of evidence (even in the states where a woman can be directly charged with rape).

    But if you mean, would I believe a wife or girlfriend under circumstances like the accuser’s, I might, depends on which girlfriend. But I would know I was prejudiced in favor of her, and that the evidence would not be enough to convince an objective person.

    It’s nice having a multi-track mind. Being able to look beyond your own assumptions is very handy for discerning what is most likely to be true. It is also better for predicting how people who _don’t_ share your assumptions will see things.

  82. Isaac says:

    typo “pretty” not “prerry”

  83. Isaac says:

    I can’t say for certain she wasn’t raped, true. I can’t say for certain because there is no difinitive proof one way or the other. Unlike you, I avoid jumping to conclusions.

    I can say that the evidence makes it more likely than not that she wasn’t. And that the evidence makes it extremely unlikely that the guy with the alibi raped her, if she was raped at all.

    We don’t see anything of the kind from the report. From the report, we see that a policeman “remembered” things to line up with the accuser’s story. And that his “memories” are contradicted by records made at the time.

    ***** from someone whose house it was, who is not accused, and which doesn’t have her DNA mixed in. Or didn’t you know there is DNA in saliva?

    It would be interesting to go through your bathroom with a black light some time. Your husband probably has some of his next to your toilet.

    Tenderness is not proof of rape. I’ve never had anything up there but I would characterize it as a tender area.

    Specula are not something I have experience with. So, any of the ladies here want to handle this one?

    No tears, no abrassions, nothing that wouldn’t happen as a result of her use of a *** toy, which she admitted to.

    Reread the article, “A day later, the woman’s condition appeared worse. She went to a University of North Carolina hospital, where she had previously received care for chronic neck and back pain.”

    So someone with chronic neck and back pain was limping a day later. After a photographed fall, and after being dragged around by the police. Let’s see, “diagnosed tenderness”, wouldn’t that mean “asked the patient if this hurts” and then took her word for it?

    ROFL. You might want to get checked for memory problems justice58, I have said many times that I realized the accuser was probably lying before I knew her race, or the race of the lacross players.

    Prerry difficult to have “prejudice in your heart” influence you when you don’t know which race either side was.

    I notice you still haven’t answered the question. Assuming that the accuser was lying, and continues to lie, what physical evidence would we expect?

  84. justice58 says:

    Isaac

    You really amaze me with your stupidity. You cannot deny that she was raped. I said all along that she was raped and now we see from the report that it is true. I never wavered from my first initial stance on the case. You know without a doubt that the report is very detailing of what happened. All the accused supporters should have egg plastered all over their face today. And rightly so!

    From reading the report: police found ***** next to the toilet…right where she said that she spit it out. The defense’s BS is over. They should have never come out attacking her in the early months. The defense intention was to whip up a frenzy with whites that a lying black woman was trying to railroad good decent duke students.”It backfired”.

    Lets talk about “injuries”,Sir Isaac, There was extreme tenderness in the ****** area and it took the nurse a very long time to insert the spectulum . Also “big guy” the police said , the way she was acting didn’t fly with them about the flexeril and beer. The victim also said she didn’t know if condoms were used. Those kind of exams are uncomfortable but not to that exteme. She didn’t even know what they inserted into her.

    You all raked her over the fire and bashed her day in and day out. You should be”ashamed’ and need to repent for what you said.

    One more thing: The hospital said there were bruises and noticed her limp and she was swollen. Where did these injuries come from Isaac…. come on…. Open your mouth and speak. This is all a nightmare and so many people hurt because of some spoiled rich disrespectful arrogants brats that felt they were entitled to have their way. Those b*st*rds!

    Don’t deny it! This rape happened.

    I am wonder Isaac: Why did you fall for the defense’s BS? Is it because she was a poor black woman and you thought because the accused are white duke students that they were telling the truth. You know the truth of that question deep in your heart. I just really want to hear your truthful answer.

    DE’s went to the courthouse steps and blew smoke up the american people’s *** because he knows how race relations is in this country. He needs to pay for his actions! That fantastic liar!

  85. Isaac3 says:

    Same Isaac, different computer again.

    “If the victim was lying about being raped: we would see her drop the case, we would see her come out and admit to making this up. We would see her apologize for her lying. We would see her throw herself at the mercy of the court and repent of her actions. But, I don’t see that happening, do you, Isaac.”

    ROFL. What color is the sky on your planet?

    You are saying that someone who would steal a car and try to kill a policeman is such a moral person that she wouldn’t commit perjury to avoid going to prison, but someone who would hire a stripper _must_ be a rapist. HAHAHAHAHA

    Honestly, you can’t buy comedy like this.

    No seriously, I mean, what would the verifiable facts be, other than the accuser’s actions, if she were lying and continued to lie?

    In reality, not in fantasyland where no one ever lies or if they do they are instantly vewy vewy sowwy about it and confess, despite it being likely to send them to jail.

    Try to wrap your mind around the concept that the accuser might just be lying and stay lying. I demonstrated the technique when I showed what physical evidence we would expect if the accuser were telling the truth. Now you try it with what physical evidence we would see if the accuser is lying. Be serious, not this fantasyland garbage.

    As for the NY times, “consistent with sexual assault” doesn’t mean “could only come from sexual assault”. “Consistent with” means “we can’t prove it wasn’t” not “we can prove it was. Frankly, the chances are that a contemporaneous (look it up) report written by the actual nurse is more likely to be true than later notes made from memory after charges had been filed.

    It is also very convenient that the notes were written “from memory” well after the prosecution had time to get its story straight.

    Remember what I said about stories told after someone has reason to lie being less credible than stories told before anyone has reason to lie? Well this is a good example of it. By the time the notes were written, the prosecution already had got its story straight. The notes were written to support the story, rather than the story being adjusted to fit the facts.

    Then there is the other stripper, “Ms. Roberts has given contradictory accounts. On March 22, she told the police that the rape accusation was ‘a crock,’ and that she had been with the accuser for all but five minutes of the party.”

    So before she had reason to say the accuser had been raped, the other stripper said she was with her the whole time. After she saw the opportunity to profit, she said “could have happened”.

    As for the “pain and tenderness” in the later days, could have been during her photographed tumble down the outside stairs. Or she could have been faking. Interesting that the later written notes say “bruising” but the contemporaneous report does not. Then there is the description. Notes taken at the time say all three were chubby. The later written from “memory” (of the same meeting) notes match the accused.

    What we have here seems to be a species of “testilying”. The police think they have the right guy, and embellish their accounts to do what they think is nothing more than framing a guilty man, but which actually might be framing an innocent man. As the article said “The difference in the police accounts could not be explained. Both investigators have declined public comment.”

    Then there are the lineups:

    First lineup: Identified Seligman as being at the party, but as not being an attacker.

    Second: She was shown 12 more photographs, including Mr. Evans’s, his lawyer said. She identified none.

    Third: No wrong answers.

    Ooo, this is fun “Mr. Evans and the two other team captains who shared the house were there. Police reports say they cooperated fully. Not only had there been no rape, they said, there had been no *** at all. They talked for hours without lawyers, gave DNA samples and offered to take polygraph tests. The officers declined the polygraph offer because, they said, DNA evidence would solve the case.”

    And so it has.

    So much for the supposed “stonewalling”.

    BTW, what do you think about the accuser’s adultery? Personally, I don’t care, but I am curious whether you do.

    Oh, as for the LAX players using fake names, so did the accuser, so that one is a draw.

    Good article. If it is accurate, then the accuser didn’t even have to come up with the initial lie, just say “yes” when the substance abuse center people asked her.

  86. justice58 says:

    Isaac

    This report is from the NewYork Times

    Please read:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/25/us/25duke.html?ref=us

  87. justice58 says:

    The point is…….she is NOT lying, don’t you get it?

    You are in serious denial that nothing happened. Can’t you see or do you have enough sense to understand that the victim is contining to go forward with this case. She is not backing down from anything. Isaac, all your backings of the accused is not going to change anything about this case. It’s a done deal. They are charged, they will stand trial and they will be found guilty.

    Stop asking me questions about my husband! Use your wife or girlfriend for an example. Better yet, use yourself for that matter. OK.

    The accused hired strippers, which is questionable about their character. Or is this not immoral? You are trying to reverse the situation and turn the table on her. They put themselves in harm’s way by being drunken idiots and then with all their lies. Don’t even start saying they didn’t lie about their names, about who the party was for, about what kind of party it was, (the track and basketball team) and the awful racial slurs, the snide remarks about a broom stick. Look at the sh*t that they did. They opened themselves up for whatever. Go and lecture them about their actions. Maybe this will be a life learning lesson for them or on the other hand it may not. You know what they say: Once a rapist, always a rapist. One thing more… take a look at their character on respect…. they disrespected their neighbors with urinating out of windows, urinating on the lawn. They had no respect for law enforcement, they had contineous bad behavior for underage drinking and wild parties. They continue with the lies even while the country is in an uproar about what happened. They are spoiled b*st*rds that think they are entitled to certain things. Their actions, yet to this day are just absolutely disgusting and deplorable. They should be men and take responsibility for what they did to this poor woman and her family. The people that are supporting these dirty evil pitiful sh*t of men are no better than they are. God will judge them on that matter.

    If the victim was lying about being raped: we would see her drop the case, we would see her come out and admit to making this up. We would see her apologize for her lying. We would see her throw herself at the mercy of the court and repent of her actions. But, I don’t see that happening, do you, Isaac.

    She knows that these are very serious charges against the dukes and yet, she is still pursuing the case because a crime happened. Get over it, Isaac, a crime did take place. Her family has suffered and her children have been uprooted from their home and can’t have contact with their grandparents because they have to live in seclusion. This is horrible for them or anyone to go through.

    When the truth comes out by ALL….You are going to be sorry for bashing a poor woman that was the victim of a brutal sexual assault.

    Shame on you!

  88. Isaac says:

    Wow, you really have a flair for answering questions that weren’t asked. I asked, would you want your husband to be in front of a jury that would believe the 4th story of a woman who had changed her stroy 3 times?

    And you ignored the question of what would we expect to see if the accuser were lying about having been raped. That is the big one justice58. What would we expect to see if the accuser were lying about being raped? I’ll ask it again at the end, in case you miss it here.

    I hate to tell you this justice58, but your husband already put himself in the position to be accused of rape. That position is called “existing”. Your husband could be accused of rape just walking down the street, or sitting in your apartment. Or going to work. Or sitting on a park bench.

    You are just as bad as the idiots who think that if a woman goes into a man’s room with him that she is “asking for it”.

    You are saying that if a man goes into a room with a woman he is “asking for” a false accusation of rape. What’s more, you think the courts should go along with it to punish the man for imaginary crimes.

    What would we expect to see if the accuser were lying about being raped?

  89. justice58 says:

    If my husband had a history of holding drunken and wild parties and it was a know fact that he was also holding wild parties for youths engaging in underage drinking, then I would divorce his *** and kick his *** to the curb.

    If during this time of wild parties and it was a known fact that he hired women to come and strip and one of them was accusing him of rape then I’d say he deserves all what is happening to him.I would not stand by his *** at all.

    But that is not the case, Isaac.

    My sweet darling husband would never do such a low-classed thing as hiring women to strip. He has a loving wife already and he has so much respect for me that he wouldn’t DREAM of disrespecting me. That is just the way it is. We have a wonderful marriage and we intend on keeping it that way. He loves our children and they mean more to him than any one night feel good party. He is a man that would NEVER disgrace his wife or children by putting himself in a position to be accused of rape.

    We married on the basis of trust, love, respect, and dedication to one another. And we are going to honor the vows that we took…………. So Help Us God.

    Does that answer your questions, I hope so?

  90. Isaac says:

    Oh, well if there is a total lack of evidence, that means they must be guilty. Because the only way for there to be no evidence is for someone to be guilty. But wait, there’s no evidence that you shot JFK, so…

    My god, justice58 must have shot JFK.

    Put your hand on someone’s arm, help them to a car, there probably won’t be enough of your DNA on them 3 hours later to find it, especially if you have no reason to search there. Screw someone, and there will be enough DNA to find. For example, if they cleaned her up (which she never said they did) so well that none of their DNA was found in her, why was her boyfriend’s DNA found in her?

    Also, if helping her to the car was the kind of event to leave detectable amounts of their DNA, cleaning her up before helping her in the car wouldn’t get rid of it. There has been no claim that they cleaned her up in the car either. Which would have been out in the open. Also no claim that they wore gloves.

    Wait, I know, they used a magic invisible DNA zapping gun that destroyed all traces of LAX player DNA, but left her boyfriend’s DNA intact. Those sneaks. That makes about as much sense as your idea.

    As I said, I don’t have to deny the information you gave on PTSD. If someone is found with what appears to be a bullet hole in them, it _might_ have been because a bullet sized meteor hit them. Or maybe because someone shot them.

    So even if one possible reason for changing stories is PTSD, another is that she simply lied.

    And if her changing stories was the result of a mental condition making her an unreliable witness, then what makes her a reliable witness now? How do we know that her accusations against these particular guys aren’t the result of PTSD.

    As for how the jury would take the psychologist, I would love to see the cross examination:

    Atty: Dr. H, you say the changes in her story could be caused by PTSD?

    DH: Yes.

    Atty: Could PTSD cause someone to mis-remember events months or years after they happened?

    DH: Yes.

    Atty: Can you say for a medical certainty that the accuser’s current story is an accurate relection of events, not altered by PTSD.

    DH: No.

    Atty: Could someone tell a different story several times without having PTSD?

    DH: Yes.

    Atty: For example, if someone was simply lying and unable to keep her story straight, could she tell several different stories?

    DH: Yes.

    later: Atty, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, even the prosecution’s own expert testified that the accuser might be telling a false story this time, just like the last 3 times. That is, she might be mistaken even if if she wasn’t just lying and unable to keep her story straight. If there were some other evidence of rape, the fact that the accuser’s testimony is unreliable, by her own psychiatrist’s admission, might not destroy the prosecution’s case. But here, the prosecutor has presented no evidence of any kind. Other than the unreliable story of someone with a very good reason to lie. Even if the defense had not put on a case, even if we had called no alibi witnesses, even if we hadn’t put our clients on the stand to tell you they are innocent, the prosecution has not met its burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Add to that, the fact that have airtight alibis, and the fact that has never had a mustache, which the accuser said her attacker did, and the prosecution’s case gets even weaker.

    You are really grasping at straws here justice58. And you still haven’t answered the question of what would we expect to see if she were lying?

    And the question of, PTSD or not, would you want your husband in front of a jury that would convict someone on nothing more than the 4th story of someone who had changed her story 3 times?

    I’ve answered your questions, now you should answer mine.

  91. justice58 says:

    Isaac

    One more thing…..Please tell me…… How can you account for this??? The defense says there was no DNA of any lacrosse player on the AV. Well, I have to wonder, when they helped her to the car that night. What happened to the DNA from carring her? As you know, they had contact with her from that. DNA had to be on her, OR was gloves worn? You have to ask………what about the clothing that they wore? Still, there had to be contact.

    Have you not QUESTIONED this fact? Just maybe something is certainly not right here. I’m just wondering if something didn’t happened with that DNA or the defense has not been forthcoming with all the information.

    Now come on! Let’s keep it real!
    If the dukes carried her to the car. Where is the DNA?? There WAS contact you know!!

    There should have been DNA since the dukes supporters have swore up and down that the dukes had on short sleeve shirts. Where is it Isaac???

    I’ll tell you…… They cleaned up baby! Those Fantastic Liers!

    You cannot deny the information I gave you from a clinical psychologist. Think about it and you know it’s true. They did it.!

    Mike Nifong may have a psychologist to testify about that very thing. Then, Isaac, how do you think the jury is going to take info like that.

  92. Isaac says:

    justice58, I was aiming my remarks about GPA mainly at Cathy.

    Has anything changed since the last time you cowered from the question of why anybody else should believe she was raped? Or are you still pretending to be the all-knowing God whose guesses are always right?

    I don’t have to stop it, that is what judges and juries are for.

    As for “motive to lie”, I hoped I wouldn’t have to spell it out for you, but:

    She had a motive to tell the police that she was raped. Specifically, her motive was that if she told them that, she wouldn’t be getting involuntarily committed, while if she didn’t tell them that, she would be locked up.

    Note that that motive exists whether she was actually raped or not.

    So if she was not raped, she had a motive to lie at the time she first said she was raped. As I said before, in court, if you have a motive to tell a particular story when you are testifying, it helps your credibility if you didn’t have any identifiable motive (other than to tell the truth) to tell that story when you first told it.

    Of course, if she was raped, she had a motive to tell the truth.

    The point is that whether she was raped or not, she had motive to say it.

    I thought when I wrote that she had motive to lie when arrested that that was a little ambiguous, but would take longer to explain than it was worth to clear up the ambiguity.

    I figured that someone entirely brainless wouldn’t notice the ambiguity, someone with some brains would notice it, but not be able to figure out what was meant, and someone who was actually good at reasoning would spot the ambiguity and realize what it meant. So now I know you have some brains, but aren’t that good at reasoning.

    BTW, the pot is calling the kettle black here. Since you base your entire opinion on the assumption that the accuser is telling the truth (this time), I find it hilarious that you are complaining about assumptions.

    Assumptions are bad if you don’t test them. I assume both ways (or in more than two ways if called for) and test the implications of the assumptions against reality.

    That is how someone who reasons figures things out. You OTOH make an assumption and cling to it no matter what the contradictory evidence. That is how an unreasoning person jumps to the conclusions, and gets stuck there.

    In this case I tried assuming that she was telling the truth (and was not mistaken about identity) and looked at the implications of that.

    If she was telling the truth:
    1) She would have the defendants’ DNA on her, in her, and probably on her clothes.
    2) None of the defendants would have an alibi (alibi, from the Latin for “elsewhere”, if you are committing a crime, you can’t be elsewhere)
    3) She would have otherwise unaccounted for injuries, bruising, evidence of anal penetration.

    Then I check those implications against reality.

    1) No DNA from the defendants on her, in her, or on her clothes.
    2) At least one of the defendants has an alibi.
    3) She had no unaccounted for injuries, bruising, or evidence of anal penetration.

    The assumption that “she is telling the truth and is accurate” fails the reality check, three times over.

    If she was lying (about the ***, different implications if they had had *** and was lying about consent, consent cases are often much, much tougher to come to a solid conclusion either way):
    1) There would be no DNA from the defendants on her or in her.
    2) One or more of the accused might have an alibi
    3) She might not have unaccounted for bruises or evidence of anal penetration.

    Reality check, no DNA, alibi, no unaccounted etc. Check, check, check.

    Note that none of those facts, other than the alibi, are from the defense they come from the prosecution. The “truth” theory fails _all_ of the tests.

    Thinking is fun. Why don’t _you_ try it now. I have figured out what we would expect to see if she is telling the truth, are you even capable of figuring out what we would expect to see if she were lying? I doubt it. Bigots like you can rarely look beyond their assumptions, even for a few minutes to consider hypotheticals.

    As for your PTSD idea, it cuts both ways. If she was wrong about the 20 men, and the 5 men, and the not being raped at all, why couldn’t she be wrong about the 3 men? Or the identity of the three men. The men she identified were at the party, she would have seen them, so if someone raped her in the bathroom, why couldn’t the “still shots” of the innocent men get interlaced with the shots of the rapists. For that matter, why couldn’t she be conflating the party with her earlier (14 years old) rape by three men?

    BTW, for a prosecutor, this is a problematic witness. You basically have someone who has told at least 4 significantly different stories. You could put her up there and just ask what happened, but if the defense is awake, they will cross about the three other stories. Great for the defense lawyer “so were you lying then or are you lying now?”

    So the prosecutor has to bring up and explain the other versions. Which means you (the prosecutor) have to make the argument, dressed up in suitable pompous verbiage, that “the accuser was imagining things then, but this story is accurate”. If you have to make that argument, it is really nice to have some kind of evidence to back up the story du jour. That way you can say “the evidence supports her current version”. This prosecutor doesn’t have any evidence to back up the story.

    I mean seriously, in your personal life, if someone told you 4 significantly different versions of the same story, would you just believe the last one? What if they then told a fifth? Would you switch to believing that one? And a sixth, seventh, etc?

    So basically, the prosecutor’s whole case comes down to the story of a woman that he is going to have to admit is an unreliable witness. That is assuming that her ID of the defendants doesn’t get tossed out before trial.

    Would you want your husband to be in front of a jury that would convict on nothing more than the 4th story of someone who had changed her story 3 times?

  93. justice58 says:

    Isaac

    You are always ranting your stupid opinions constantly and frankly I’m sick of you.

    You stated: Who cares about her GPA, apparently CATHY does. Read the above post submitted by her, OK.

    She was raped and the ones who did it are charged and will soon be found guilty and heading behind prison walls and you and all the scum bags can’t stop it.

    How do your little bird brain, figure that she had a motive to lie. Do you know this as truth or is it assumptions. Assumptions don’t mean sh*t.

    You are about the dumbest person yet to believe that Mike Nifong doesn’t have concrete evidence to convict those b*st*rds. Just go on and continue to live in denial.

    The defense has been blowing smoke up your *** and you are falling hook, line, and sinker. Enjoy yourself for now, believing all the spin from the defense,because time will tell the story.

    I found something very interesting about what happens to a person that has suffered from trauma. It is the development of this disorder called PTSD. You should read this and then let your mind ponder on these things.

    This is a report from this website called psychiatrictimes.com

    ” The development of PTSD following trauma proposes that the increased sympathetic nervous system activity leads to an exaggerated sympathetic nervous system response to the trauma, manifested by an increased concentration of adrenaline. This in turn initiates a process in which traumatic memories become over-consolidated or “inappropriately remembered” due to an exaggerated level of distress. The primary mechanism through which adrenaline facilitates memory formation is by maintaining organisms at a high level of arousal. If cortisol fails to adequately shut down adrenaline, this arousal might be prolonged and the consolidation of the memory facilitated. The increased distress every time there are traumatic reminders would further activate stress-responsive systems, resulting in secondary biological alterations associated with anxiety and hyperarousal”.

    One more thing……. I had a discussion with one of my professors at school. He is a clinical psychologist. He said during a traumatic experience the recall of the memory of the experience is often not at the same speed as the trauma. He also said memory is stored in still shots and not motion and recall is a reconstruction of the still shots and then memory speed would be distorted.

    This may account for the different stories that she stated. It’s my opinion that is what happened. Soooooo to the dukes………SEE YA.

  94. Isaac says:

    More importantly, who cares what her GPA is, or whether she is a full time student or not? As for contradictions, maybe the media just got some periferal details wrong. I am shocked, shocked that that could happen.

    All of that is just more distraction from the facts of the case. The fact is, we have nothing but the accuser’s word that she suffered through a traumatic experience. Nothing at all. No physical evidence, no eyewitness testimony. Even as far as just her word goes she didn’t tell anyone she was raped until she had motive to lie about it.

    That is actually significant. If the defense says “she made it up rather than get arrested” the prosecutor could have countered with “she told Mr/Mrs X that she was raped before she had any reason to make up a story”. But she didn’t tell anyone she was raped until a claim of rape (whether true or not) was a “get out of jail free card” for her.

    When you consider some cases of false accusations (as shown by videotape) have had women coming in on their own volition to make a false report, with no apparent motive to lie, it isn’t that much of a stretch to think that someone with a motive to lie might also lie.

  95. justice58 says:

    Cathy

    Why is it hard to believe that she has a GPA of 3.75. You must think that blacks are incapable of making good grades or why would you even bring it up,

    I don’t think that the President of NCCU gives a d*mn what someone like you think or feel for that matter. It’s too bad you can’t maintain those kind of grades otherwise you would congratulate her on her work.

    Whether she is taking only one course, being a half-time student or being a full-time student is none of your stupid business.

    This woman has suffered through a very traumatic experience and need compassion and love and that is what the BLACK community is giving her. So get off her!!!.

  96. Cathy says:

    Well said, Stef. This “rape” case is totally not about race. I haven’t read every post but I doubt very much that anybody said that all black women are liars. And if somebody did say that, clearly the person is a clown or a sicko. But as I said, I don’t think anybody is saying anything remotely like that. So, somebody is crying wolf, and there is no wolf.

    Something else I don’t understand: why feel so much compassion for an accuser who is lying at every turn? It’s not as if the world has run out of people who truly need and deserve compassion! Look around you, for Chrissake’s.

    And speaking of lies: the latest is the claim that she has a GPA of 3.75. Did she also manipulate NCCU into changing her GPA?
    Something else funny about her school status: originally they said she was taking one course, in police psychology. Then a few days later they said she is a full-time student. Strange.

  97. Stef says:

    Also, had I given a statement that the man who raped me was short, chubby with fluffy hair, when your husband is 6′2, 170lbs with silky smooth hair? Because that’s what happened in this case.

  98. Stef says:

    Justice-

    The fact that you have neer heard of the Tawana Brawley case shows your lack of attention to current (at the time) news. I am 23 and still I remember that case being blasted all over the news. Perhaps the reason you never heard of it is because you turn a deaf ear to those who speak down of a black woman, even when it is the truth.

    I find it funny that you would laugh at the idea of Isaac having been through law school. He sounds like a very intelligent, reasonable and above all informed man when it comes to judicial procedures, something you are not. What, do you think he’d make it all up? No one has to lie on this blog in order to sound smarter than you-I have a 4 year old cousin who could work this case out faster than you.

    It’s funny, Isaac hit the nail on the head-you take crticism of the accuser as a personal criticism to you-you think if people do not believe this black woman, in turn, they are not believing any black woman. However, that is not the case. If you were to get up and go to the police and claim rape, and you had evidence like DNA, injury, trauma, and a timeline that even roughly fit the possibility of a man you accused raping you, I would stand behind you and absolutely supprt the idea of your case going to trial, because you would have ampel evidence to back up your claim. However, this is not the case in the DUke case-there is not one piece of evidence that backs up the accusers claim. Instead, there is more than enough evidence to almost prove the absolute innocence of these three young men, let alone create resonable doubt.

    Basically, it’s like me going out tomorrow, walking down the street and bumping into your husband by accident. Then, me going to the police and saying a man raped me, giving the police a discription, and the police managing to find every man who was on that street at the exact time that I said I was on the street too. Then, giving me a line up ONLY of the men who were on that street, and me arbitrarily picking your husband as the rapist. A piece of thread from your husband’s suit was found on my shirt, but no DNA in anyform was found in or on my body that matched your husband. Your husband has an almost airtight alibi that is supported by pictures and eye witnesses that he wasn’t even on the street at the time I bumped into someone and got raped. And the thread found on my shirt can be attributed to our clothing brushing each other when we bumped into one another.

    Would you support me, the victim then? Because that situation is very similar to what is going on here. I could have a million and ten reasons to claim someone raped me, and knowing that your husband was there on that street at the time I said I was raped helps bolster the idea that I was. But with no proof, with no evidence to speak against your husband, would you believe me? Would you believe me over your husband?

  99. Isaac says:

    Johnny Cochrane was a good lawyer, but hardly unique. I also won’t admit the moon is made of green cheese, or that you are Napoleon. None of which have anything to do with this case.

    Civil juries don’t find people guilty. They find them liable. Actually, I don’t get your point. Nor what OJ has to do with this case. Unless you are saying that criminal juries sometimes come up with assinine verdicts and you think the jury in the Duke case will likewise come up with an assinine verdict.

    Other than the cackling of a madwoman, is there any reason why lawschool is funny?

    I don’t care about discrediting black women, but I wouldn’t expect a racist like yourself to understand that. The fact that the accuser is a liar has nothing to do with her race, as I have said before, many times.

    In order to win a fight, you have to land a blow. So far, you haven’t come close. All you have done is blather and bluster. And the only one I see bringing race up in relation to this case is you.

    I notice you still can’t answer the very simple questions that Stef asked about the problems with the prosecution’s case. Everything you say, calling people names, making up spurious claims of racism, etc. is blowing smoke, but it doesn’t obscure the fact that there is no credible evidence against the defendants and plenty of credible evidence for them.

    Maybe I should amend that old saying: If the facts are on your side talk about the facts, if the law is on your side talk about the law, if neither the facts nor the law is on your side, cry “racism”.

  100. justice58 says:

    No baby… Amen means…..SO BE IT

    Johnnie Cochran was a one of a kind attorney that made others shiver in their boots. You won’t admit it but we both know that it’s true. Yes, a civil jury found him guilty ….not criminal but CIVIL. You get my point.

    Isaac… don’t make me laugh so hard? law school??? Pleeeeeeeeeease!!!

    Ohhhh…. you little youngster!!! How cute!!!

    I get angry because you want to discredit black women and it brings out the anger in me.

    That’s all for now…. I’ll slap you around later.

  101. Isaac says:

    Actually, the reason I am familiar with the Tawana Brawley case is that I pay attention to the news, and the case was national news. It was the biggest media feeding frenzy over a rape hoax in my lifetime. The Duke rape case doesn’t come close to the coverage the Brawley case got.

    I also brought up the Scottsboro nine case (before my time, but I read about it back in law school). Note that the accusers in the Scottsboro case were white and the accused were black. I am curious, did you consciously choose to ignore the my reference to that, or did it not even make it past your filters that only allow you to see things you can mis-interpret as racist?

    I don’t suggest that all black women are liars. I say that everyone, of every race, creed and color, is capable of lying. The TB case and the SN case I cited as evidence that some people lie about having been raped. I cited them to rebut your position that the accuser must be telling the truth because no one would lie about being raped. Note that the cases include two white women making false accusations and one black woman.

    Since you have now conceded that some women lie about being raped, there isn’t any point in my bringing up either of those cases again.

    However, I never cited those cases as reasons why I think this particular accuser is lying. As a matter of fact, I figured out she was lying before I knew the races of any of the parties. The first news report I saw about this was about an exotic dancer having accused a bunch of lacross players, with details about the accusation (no condoms, multiple penetration, etc.) and the DNA test coming back negative. It wasn’t until much later I found out the races of the people involved.

    A criminal jury found that the prosecution did not prove OJ’s guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Later a civil jury found that he had killed Nichol Simpson and Ron Goldman, more likely than not.

    I don’t expect these postings to affect the jury. You keep asserting “they will find the Dukes guilty”. That’s nice, prove it. Seriously though Ms. Jon Edward, you don’t know the future, and just asserting that without backing it up with reasons why the jury would do that is boring and pointless. As I said, you can say “the moon is made of green cheese” until you are blue in the face, that doesn’t make it so.

    It doesn’t take anything in order to claim rape, not even rape. However, you probably mean “it is possible to be raped without bruises”. That is true, it is a little more difficult to be raped _and beaten_ by three athletes without bruises, which is what the accuser claims happened. However, the issue is not whether she _could_ have been raped, it is whether her injuries help _prove_ she was raped. The medical report said swelling, not bruising. Swelling that was not an injury and could have come from consensual *** or the insertion of a *** toy. As in, swelling you get when something is put in there and moved about, not swelling that proves rape.

    Her medical exam only provides evidence that she had *** that day, not that she was raped. So we are right back at the only evidence that she was raped at all being her word.

    Assuming the jury is not stacked with bigots like yourself, why should they believe her? We keep coming back to that question, which you never manage to answer. Lay it out, step by step, why should anyone who is not taking this on blind faith believe her?

    Ah, now we are back to the claim that you don’t know any women that lie about being raped. If you mean, “you don’t know any personally”, well, your prejudice that any woman who says she was raped is telling the truth makes you an unreliable source on this. If you mean “you don’t know of any that exist”, then (since mention of the TB case sends you into raving hysterics) what about the women in the Scottsboro nine case. Or the woman in the Navy case you brought up. Do you think they were telling the truth?

    Again, the question arises of whether you consciously ignore arguments or if they never make it past your delusions. The defense could be sodomizing goats on the courthouse lawn and it still wouldn’t change the fact that going solely on information provided by the _prosecution and the accuser_ the accuser is clearly lying.

    The defense hadn’t said a single word about this case until well after I realized it was a false accusation. Again, deliberate ignoring of facts or just not getting in past your delusions?

    The late Johnnie Cochrane was good at snowing a jury. But that has nothign to do with this case.

    I know why the ourheartsworld site was established. The point is that you cited that site to bolster your claims that your position is reasonable. No site that is set up to exclusively promote one point of view and filter out any other point of views is evidence that the supported point is reasonable. There are web sites out there that support Aryan Nation and the KKK, those sites probably have posts on them supporting their points of view. That doesn’t make their points reasonable or even sane. Lotta love for racists on those cites, doesn’t make racism OK. Nor does the love for the victim on a site that filters out all but love mean didly about the merits of her claim.

    Thank you for proving my point.

    As for the last, I always find it hillarious when someone uses “Bless” and “Jesus” when they really mean “**** you”.

    And you don’t “Amen” your own prayer. It’s like saying “I agree with myself”.

  102. justice58 says:

    I am not familiar with the Tawana Brawley case!! I’ve never had the urge to look it up like you. It just proves you want to discredit black women any way you can. Soooooooo you go searching the case of TB and you think….hey I got something when you only have NOTHING.

    You people seem to make it a daily task to suggest that ALL black women are liars. That’s the very reason you bring up TB. I have no idea about the case of TB. For God’s sake…. I think that case was 20 or more years ago. Give it the….. f*ck up. You can’t do a d*mn thing about her or O.J. Remember a jury found O.J. NOT GUILTY. O.J. is a free man. Life goes f*cking on.

    All of your posting along with Stef, BF, M. and the gang will do nothing for that jury in North Carolina. They will find the dukes Guilty AS CHARGED. I want to be in that courtroom at the time the verdict comes in and maybe you will get to see justice58.

    YOU say…..Quote: Ordinary ***…. You are one d*mn fool. Are you attempting to think it takes bruises in order to claim rape. Furthermore…. if she did use *** toys that day… No woman will injure her own ******. Are you d*mn crazy… Wait a minute… Yes you are.

    Listen Isaac… it’s not important that I believe her. It’s very IMPORTANT that the JURY believe her…. Got that!! and they WILL.

    You people are going to complain about judge after judge because they won’t do things the way YOU PEOPLE want. Hey… Life is a B*tch, ain’t it.

    I never said… only the one accusing my husband is a liar. I’m sure there is some women that do lie about being raped. I don’t know of any. I do know that the duke victim is NOT lying.

    The defense did selectively pick out certain parts and disclose to the public some things about the victim but not in it’s entirety. Well it’s like this…. You desire to believe the defense spin and I certainly do not. The defense is getting mega bucks to do so and trying to earn a big reputation at the same time. They’ll be beat down whimps after this is over. And they owe it to themselves for it.

    Isaac… the defense has swayed you just like Johnnie C. swayed the jury in the O.J. trial. But mind you…. Joe C.,K.O. and the gang is no match for the man Johnnie C. He was one of a kind. A masterpiece, baby.

    About the web site…ourheartsworld.com
    it was established so the victim could have comfort in knowning that she have people supporting her and praying for her as she goes through this devastating time in her life. They don’t want her to read all the garbage and hate mail to her. You are a d*mn fool to think otherwise. There is no comfort in hate mail…moron. I’m happy she is reading the love notes and seeing that MUCH love is out there toward her.

    MAY GOD BLESS HER IN JESUS NAME…AMEN

  103. Isaac says:

    justice58, I never suggested you were from the backwoods. As you ignored when I said it before, the web site could get many e-mails against her for every e-mail for her and you would never know because they only post the ones for her. If they got 1 million e-mails saying “She is a liar” and 100 e-mails saying “I believe her”, what do you think you would see on the site?

    I know what I think you would see on the site, 100 e-mails saying “I believe her” and none saying “she is a liar”. It is called “selection bias”.

    I don’t have to ignore the fact that many of the LAX players have criminal records, mostly for about the most mild and common offenses that actually are crimes. Underaged drinking, public urination, and noise. My God, let’s hang them.

    I don’t know what you have been reading. I have never said anything about the LAX players being “golden” or even decent. I don’t know them, one way or another. I don’t excuse them for the things they have done, and I don’t condone the crimes they have been convicted of. But just like someone who steals a car and tries to run over a cop can still be raped, someone who drinks while under age and urinates in public can be falsely accused of rape.

    I find it a continuing source of amusement that you find the minor, relatively harmless, and not that evil crimes the LAX players have been convicted of to be a scathing indictment of their character, while at the same time finding the far more serious, harmful, and evil crimes that the accuser has been convicted of to be unimportant.

    I guess the prejudiced can’t tell they are prejudiced. But seriously, how do you reconcile those two positions? That the serious crimes of the accuser doesn’t make her an unreliable witness, but the minor crimes of the LAX players does make them rapists and liars?

    As for insulting, knock yourself out. Insults can add spice to an argument. The problem is that you haven’t got anything else. There is no “there” there in your arguments. No substance, rarely even an attempt to produce anything relevant.

    You can say “I believe her” until you are blue in the face. You can also say “the moon is made of green cheese” until you are blue in the face. Neither statement will become any more relevant by repetition. You can also keep saying “Mike Nifong has secret evidence”, in the manner of Joe McCarthy. That won’t make that true either.

    Perhaps I should have been more clear. You can keep saying those things, none of which constitute a persuasive argument, _but_ the more you say them, the more we will laugh at you for thinking that your personal beliefs about the case matter more than the facts. You are a sad joke. A joke which gets sadder the more you scream the equivalent of “I am Napoleon”.

    The only way Nifong is getting a conviction here is if he packs the jury with bigots like yourself, who won’t be swayed by facts, _and_ manages to keep out anyone with a hint of rationality. If that happens, I will wait for the appeals court to toss it.

    You think not at all. As I have said before. I am not going on just defense spin. I don’t have to. I am going purely and entirely on facts put out by the prosecution. Take away every single thing the defense has said, and focus entirely on the facts the prosecution and the accuser have said and there is _still_ no case here.

    1) Accuser says “I was raped in every ******* by three large men, and beaten. They did not use condoms and did ejaculate in me”.
    2) Prosecutor says “No DNA found in the accuser matching any LAX player”.
    3) Prosecutor says “No DNA found in the accuser matching any LAX player in the second round of tests.
    4) Medical records provided by the Prosecution show no signs of beating, no anal penetration, nothing but ordinary ***.
    5) Accuser admitted to having *** and penetrating herself with a toy prior to the party.
    6) Accuser’s story to police does not provide any reason why DNA would not be found.

    Which of those are you claiming isn’t true? Because they are enough to convince anyone with a brain in their head that the accuser is lying, and every one of them came from the accuser or the Prosecutor.

    Judge Titus is up for election himself this year. That may be why he put this off until after the election. He needs the black vote like any other Democrat in Durham. Once the election is over (not another one for 8 years) he won’t have to worry about losing for following the law.

    I will take a bet. You have absolutely no basis for believing that Judge Titus is a man of honor. You are just fitting that into your little delusion.

    Actually, in order to be a good lawyer, you have to see the other side. Sometimes, the other side has absolutely no valid case. Again, irony since you can’t even conceive that a woman, other than one accusing your husband, could possibly lie about being raped.

    I notice you have never answered whether you think Tawana Brawley or the accusers of the Scottsboro nine were lying. Care to make yourself more of a joke by refusing to answer again?

  104. justice58 says:

    Isaac

    You said….quote:
    she has acted extremely irresponsibly when drunk, and shown a disregard of the rights of others.

    Do you actually hear yourself… the duke 3 had been drinking (according to reports) since around 2pm that afternoon. The dancers didn’t arrive until about 11:30pm. The were drunk by then. The dukies had no RESPECT for their neighbors, they were seen urinating out of windows, having parties and disturbing the neighbors with loud noise,continuing to be a thorn in their neighbors side and you say the victim has shown no regard for the rights of others!! How dare you make that remark without choking on it?? Get a grip on yourself and stop this foolishness. Yes the victim may have been 17 at the time she reported the first rape but, that age is young and still immature. She is a woman now and can handle herself better. As you see…she is not backing down. The website..ourheartsworld.com is doing a beautiful job for her and I commend them for it. That website gets sooooooo many warm responses and I don’t think for a minute that the bad responses outway the good. I have sent her messages myself and soooooooo many others that I know personally have also. We are united together as one voice and the strength is mighty. Where do you and the racist b*tch Stef get off suggesting that I’m from the backwoods?? I laugh at YOU PEOPLE and your stupidity. Pleeeeeeeeeeease…. I wouldn’t waste any energy on that thought.

    Isaac… YOU can’t change the fact some of the dukies are convicted criminals. They’re not the GOLDEN boys as you make them out to be. They’re lying convicted criminals.

    Why shouldn’t I be insulting???? You have insulted me on more than one occasion. I’d say… it’s equal pay.

    Oh Yes…. I will NOT stop saying “I believe her”… This case will be proven by Mike Nifong and ALL of you will hang your heads and stop showing your faces in public for a while. The REAL truth will be revealed in court as to what happened on the night in question.

    You think your argument is better. I think NOT. I am just soooooooo amused at you and your dingalings….. You will have to do better than that…. Going solely on defense spin that has been selectively picked to tamper with the jury pool. Judge Titus saw it and wasn’t going for it. That’s why he shut the defense down and now they’re crying. I like this Judge Titus… A MAN OF HONOR!! I know that Stef said she was in law school…. Not a good law student…. You see, in order to be a lawyer, you have to argue the opposite side… You are no good baby!! I would wipe my feet all over your *** and send you back to law school. When she can’t win an argument…she resorts to name calling, such as stupid, ignorant, learn how to spell and if you would look at her posts…. the spelling is downright shameful. A lawyer can’t come into a courtroom calling people names!! She definitely won’t make it.

    The rest of what has been said about me…. It is pointless to comment on…. so I’m not going to even attempt to try.

    Good Day

  105. Isaac says:

    justice58, I would say there is no need to be insulting, but in your case, with the facts and the law on the other side, that is all you have. She reported the earlier rape when she was 17, three years after it allegedly took place. She has more recently accused her ex-husband of kidnapping her, before letting the matter drop.

    As I said, I don’t know whether she will break her pattern now to testify.

    Considering what she did versus her sentence, it would be more accurate to say she has served her sentence than to say she has paid her debt. The reason I keep bringing it up is not that I am saying that it prooves that she is a bad person (even though it does), nor that a criminal can’t be raped (anyone can be raped), rather it is to show that she has acted extremely irresponsibly when drunk, and shown a disregard of the rights of others.

    I find it particularly ironic that you don’t want her criminal history brought up as showing that she might lie, considering that you think the far, far milder criminal history of the accused proves that they would rape.

    Your arguments go “Just because someone would steal a car, and try to kill a police officer doesn’t mean she would lie” and “someone who would drink while under age, urinate in public, and make too much noise would definately rape”.

    So why do the very minor crimes of the defendants prove they are rapists, but the rather major crimes of the accuser doesn’t even suggest that she might lie?

    BTW, have you ever been convicted of a crime? If so, what? As for me, I pled guilty to speeding once, and expired car safety inspection.

    I checked out the site you mentioned. It reminded me of Laura Bush saying she never met anyone who thought her husband was doing a bad job. That was when his approval rating was in the 30s.

    The site says right on it that posts that don’t support her won’tl be displayed. There are 300 million people in this country, if one person in ten thousand supports her for whatever reason, that is 30,000 people. More than enough to provide some posts for a web site.

    If I put up a site in favor of Charles Manson, I could probably get as many posts supporting him as they have there. Of course I would have to wade through an ocean of posts opposing him, but then, probably so does ourheartsworld.com (opposing the accuser that is).

    BTW, did you notice that Al Sharpton is part of the group that put up the web site. If I were the accuser, I would be pretty annoyed about that. Getting an endorsement from someone who first rose to national prominence while supporting a false accusation of rape doesn’t seem likely to help her. Not evidence that she is lying of course, just amusing.

  106. justice58 says:

    Isaac

    Why do you sit there and frazzle your bird brain about whether the victim will show up in court?? Don’t you wish that she wouldn’t?? Baby, she will be there to testify as to what they did to her. Her testimony will put the low-classed, trashy, spoiled rich b*st*rds in prison for at least thirty-five years. They should have kept their nose clean.

    You don’t sh*t about that phone call….only your wishful assumptions. Don’t ever under estimate!!

    Maybe when she was 14 years, she didn’t have the courage to follow through against the boys who raped her. But now baby, she is a strong woman and you and the whole world will see that strength. She has paid her debt for the incident with the taxi cab. Stop bringing it up!!

    It does not mean a rape didn’t happen because she has had some problems with the law. Do you think that once a person has been arrested for some crime or another can’t be raped? I’m standing with her and I’m praying for her and so are many other people. Just read… ourheartsworld.com. You will see the love and support and there are others that are supporting her that are not on the blogs, baby. We are united together for victims of this horrible crime.

  107. Stef says:

    Why should IIIII know? I don’t get it.
    Go Danowski. I’m excited for their season next year.

  108. Isaac says:

    justice58, her prior history when it comes to following up on charges (or rather, not following up) makes it no certain thing that she will even show up in court, much less answer any particular questions.

    As for the call itself, I find that rather neutral evidence until we find out more about the details.From someone at the escort agency. The evidence so far revealed does not make the accuser a credible source of information.

    Quite apart from the overwhelming physical evidence contradicting her story, and her previous stories contradicting her current story, someone who would steal a car and try to murder a police officer is not someone I would expect to balk at perjury.

  109. justice58 says:

    She probably did try to use her phone and they took it from her. I have heard many times that someone takes a phone from a person and hang it up. That certainly is not uncommon for someone to do when they’re trying to stop you from calling for help…….hello!!

    Stef… I know that YOU should know that a person is charged for a full minute even if they dial a number and then suddenly hang up….you are still charged the time… thank-you

    The victim will answer all your questions in court, you’ll have to wait for it….as you can see MF and JT is moving this case forward.

  110. Stef says:

    Why am I getting too nasty? Because I’m speaking the truth? The truth hurts sometimes Justice.

    As for her being a prostitute, I kind of assumed by the reports that she had *** with those three people that week (four, but one was her boyfriend) leading up to the party, that it was a business transaction, so to speak. I also think a lot of low class strippers (and by low class I mean the place of employment, not the person themselves, the escort service she worked for wasn’t really “reputable” nor apparently reliable because most “good” ones send a body guard with all strippers, regardless of the party) tend to provide an “escort” service deal after performances, as in an extra 300 bucks for a bit of time up in a room….that’s my general knowledge from people I know of who have hired strippers….I’m not trying to slander her, Isaac, I just assumed based on the information about her sexcapades the previous week it was job related.

    As for the phone call, that is true, however, I just find it hard to believe that in the middle of being brutally raped, kicked, beaten, and strangled, she managed to get a call out and the guys allowed the phone to be open for at least a minute. If you have three guys holding you down, how are you going to break free in order to find the phone, open the phone, dial (even on speed dial), hit send, and let it ring without them stopping you immediately?

  111. justice58 says:

    Listen here Stef

    You’re getting a little toooooooo nasty! watch your tongue now.

  112. Isaac says:

    A minute long call doesn’t mean much. Most cell phone providers charge by the minute. A call hung up as soon as it was picked up would be a “1 minute call”. In fact, most companies charge you for a minute call if you let the phone ring for more than 30 seconds and no one picks up. Or it could have been the redial button accidentally getting hit and “hello? hello? No one there.

    Nothing says you can’t dance in little or no clothing. Well, I can’t, but then I can’t dance with clothing either. Of course, that doesn’t mean that the dancing is the primary reason for the presence of the stripper…

    As for calling the profession “exotic dancing”, it is unambiguous. No other profession goes by that name, and if dancing is part of it, it is more descriptive than “stripper”.

    LOL. It would be hillarious if Juliard offerred a degree in stripping.

    As I have said before, there haven’t been any reports that I am aware of that indicate the woman is a prostitute.

    The truth is damning enough without exagerating. All it does is hurt your credibility.

  113. Stef says:

    Hey Betty,
    Oh fun! I’ve never been, my boyfriend has though and loved it. Glad you had a good time.

    Justice,
    The phone call was a minute long. Do you really think the guys, if they were raping her, would let her open a phone, dial, let it ring, and then stay on it for a minute? Come on! Be reasonable here. And why would she call the excot service? not 911? not her family? Honestly now.

    Nifong wasn’t allowed to subpena the information on the elctronic “whereabouts” for the others guys. That made me happy. In the words of Justice “the judge is keeping him in check”…to the best of his abilities.

    And honestly, I just have to vent about this, I am SO SICK of the term exotic dancer. It’s stripper, for Christ’s sake. There is nothing exotic or even close to “dancing” about taking your clothes off and performing *** acts on yourself with a *****, vibrator, or other person. Crystal was a stripper, she took her clothes off and fucked guys for cash. I don’t see a degree from Juliard neccessary in this. If they want to refering to *** as “dancing”, by all means, but I know some ballarinas who are gonna be pretty pissed off.

  114. Isaac says:

    The case may not be dismissed. Of course it also may be dismissed. It really depends on whether the judge correctly follows the rules of evidence. If he does, the case is over, since there is no admissible evidence tying the accused to the crime. If he doesn’t it may go to a jury.

    In the unlikely event that a jury finds them guilty, the appeals court will toss it for using inadmissible evidence.

  115. justice58 says:

    Isaac…. are you nuts!! This case is not going to be dismissed. I thought you had better sense and I was starting to think that you might be a little smart.

    what is it going to take to let you know that this case will not be dismissed. Now… after saying all that…. STOP IT….Isaac. Get real !!!

  116. Isaac says:

    Cheek isn’t going to prosecute Nifong. The fact that there is enough evidence to say that the guys almost certainly are not guilty doesn’t mean there is a good case against Nifong. He might get sued for malicious prosecution, but nothing he has provably done rises to the level of a crime.

    A false accusation of rape is a crime, but try proving beyond a reasonable doubt that it is false, rather than mistaken identity or something.

    Slander is a civil matter, not a crime. For a public figure, you have to prove recklessness with regards to the truth, or knowledge that what you are saying is false. With a private figure, you still have to prove negligence. A jury is unlikely to find a family negligent for believing their daughter when she says she was raped.

    It is unfortunate, but the best outcome the accused are likely to get is a dismissal of charges and a big civil suit. Of course, there is no point in suing the accuser if she is going to remain poor, but if she tries to profit from this, it might be worth it.

    Of course if she sues them, they would probably countersue. If you are in court anyway, it doesn’t cost much to countersue.

  117. Betty Friedan says:

    Stef Just back from vacation on the “big island” of Hawaii. If you ever go, check out, “Flumin the Ditch” http://www.hawaiiactivities.com/index.cfm?activity=4132D30B-0D9A-40A1-8E32E924B597BF43, it was a nice break from the beaches that were filled with huge sea turtles and fishes of all kinds.

    While waiting for dinner reservations, I was tempted to use one of the hotel’s computers to say hi, but this vacation was only going to be for fun and family. I didn’t even bring my work, which is totally not like me.

    I see your still trying to reason with justice58. I swear she’s a lost cause, who would call an escort service for help?

    btw, justice58,

    Vote for Cheek!

    Cheek will prosecute Nifong for malicious prosecution, Crystal for false accusation of rape, and her family for slander.

  118. justice58 says:

    Stef.

    No he’s not. The victim could have been calling for help. We don’t know as of yet, what this call was for. We’ll see at trial.

    Your man Cheek can’t even make up his mind if he wants to run. The people in Durham certainly don’t want him as DA… “are you kidding me”. The people want a DA that is confident in what he is doing and Cheek is not that man.

    Sorry Stef… it’s not the way you want or think it to be. Just from watching Judge Titus… he is not about BS either. You probably saw him put Osborne or whoever in his place and he will be this way from now on. The judge is tired of all the publicity with the media and so forth. Everyone is going to get a fair trial.

  119. Stef says:

    Justice…how do you fight against the fact that a on eminute phone call was made to the escort service from the accusers phone? What, did she say “guys, hold up, stop raping me, i have to call my boss” and they were like oh, yeah crystal, go ahead, we dont want you to geti n trouble” and then the rape continued?

    Nifong’s gonna lose the election in november…and it will be glorious.

  120. Betty Friedan says:

    justice58, your witty comebacks are hilarious.

    just the facts
    Stripper possibly made a false claim of rape by three boys in 1996.

    Stripper made a false claim of kidnapping in 1998

    Stripper charged with larceny, auto theft, and trying to kill a police officer in 2002

    The entire lacrosse team cooperated completely with the police investigation.

    1st round of DNA shows no link to the lacrosse team.

    2nd round of DNA shows no link to the lacrosse team

    DNA proves stripper had *** with boyfriend/pimp and two other men, and paying “client”, and a battery vaginal *** toy before going to the party, which accounts for the “rape kit” evidence of recent sexual activity.

    The bathroom is absolutely and completely devoid of any evidence of a rape. Where is her DNA? Urine, blood, vaginal fluid, saliva, or tears?

    Many people’s DNA were found under her nails but none from the innocent lacrosse boys. The only DNA that has a partial link to one of the boys was found on the top surface of the fake nail.

    She lied about losing her fake finger nails in a desperate struggle in the small enclosed bathroom, but pictures show that she removed her nails before inadequately performing her routine. No scratches were found on any of the innocent lacrosse boys’ bodies. No DNA of any lacrosse boy was found under her nails.

    The 2 innocent boys she “eeny meeny miney moed” to be her rapists weren’t even at the party the time she claimed the rape occurred. She claims that she’s 100% sure, but she told her father that she’s not sure.

    The stripper was in the process of being arrested when she created the rape lie as an alibi to stay out of jail

    Nifong claimed a rape drug could have been used, but now we know that a tox screen was never done and Nifong made the rape drug lie up.

    The DA is trying to suppress the stripper’s cell phone which may contain records of her being on the phone at the time she claimed she was suppose to be being raped by boys who weren’t even there.

    Now it’s found that the stripper was on the cell phone at the time she claimed she was raped.

  121. justice58 says:

    Betty…It is still the same……stick it up your……..

  122. Betty Friedan says:

    justice58,

    Really? How do you know? I’m sure you’re ware that you’re not very bright, and you’ve proven numerous times that you know nothing of what you speak.

    Are you sure you’re not speaking to “joe cool”? You know how you tend to be oblivious to the obvious; thus making totl fool of yourself.

  123. justice58 says:

    BF

    *****…. I was speaking directly to you…lowdown nasty mfing trash!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  124. Betty Friedan says:

    justice58 said: “I have no use for worthless TRASH!!”

    She’s talking about you “joe cool”.

    I agree with you on tis one justice58, joe cool is trash.

  125. joe cool says:

    I’m in love with justice58! Kick some *** girl and down with BF!

  126. justice58 says:

    I have no use for worthless TRASH!!

  127. Betty Friedan says:

    Justice58,

    I wouldn’t expect you to figure it out. You’re not exactly the sharpest tool in the shed, but on the bright side, what you lack in brains and common sense, you make up for in mindless and meaningless rants.

    You’re like watching two monkeys in a cage fighting over a grape. You don’t make any sense, but you’re loud and you seem to enjoy making an *** out of yourself.

    “You go girl!” “Get that grape!”

  128. justice58 says:

    Betty

    you’re the only one on a f*****g kick!!!… and what CALIBER??? DUMB, IGNORANT TRASH!!

  129. justice58 says:

    You are one sick MF!!!

    You have only exposed the fact that you’re TRASH

  130. Betty Friedan says:

    Let me guess, is it the same place you keep your head?

    You lack the caliber of intellect to out do me, why do you even try?

  131. justice58 says:

    Betty Friedan

    You know where you can stick your opinions!!!!!!

  132. Betty Friedan says:

    You think j58 sounds “stupid” here or w-bang, checkout her on this blog’s sister site:

    http://cornell.elliottback.com/archives/2006/04/19/duke-rape-scandal/

    Where I left her this post.

    Good morning Stef, I agree, the parents testifying for their child is only icing to the cake, his evidence is the cake, and the accuser has pie on her face. Hmmm. I think I might be hungry. Anyway, I doubt that the boys have to rely on their parents’ testimony, it’s obvious that they’re innocent.

    Dear Justice58, who-said-she-had-to-take-a-few-days-off-to-study-for-exams-but-is-here-daily-anyways-during-this-college-break, has a good point (something she rarely comes close to), lets talk about the family.

    The black stripper/hooker’s father said that his daughter’s face as beaten and swollen, but medical reports said that the black stripper/hooker only had a minor scratch on her knee and another n her ankle.

    The black stripper/hooker’s father said she was raped by a broom stick, but the black stripper/hooker never mentioned a being raped by a broom stick in any of her twelve different stories she told the investigators.

    The black stripper/hooker’s ex-husband stated that he believes that the black stripper/hooker didn’t lie about being kidnapped and raped, but then claimed that the black stripper/hooker made a false claim of kidnapping in 1998.

    The black stripper/hooker made a similarly suspicious claim against three boys in 1996, was dishonorably discharged from the Navy, had a child from another man while married to her ex-husband, arrested for grand larceny and attempting to kill a police officer in 2002, finally was found intoxicated and was arrested until she cried rape. It took 6 line-ups for the stripper/hooker to innocent boys to be her Duke Lacrosse rapists out of a photo lineup of only Duke Lacrosse players, she claimed she didn’t have *** with anyone for over a week, but later confessed to having *** with a “client” the night before, her boyfriend earlier that evening, a battery vaginal *** toy at the party before the Duke party, and the two guys driving her to the Duke party.

    This black stripper/hooker was dripping with DNA evidence before arriving at the Duke boys’ house, and none of the DNA was linked to the innocent Duke lacrosse boys who this criminal black stripper/hooker first ripped off and then destroyed their lives with this false claim of rape.

    The black stripper/hooker’s cousin “Jackii” claims that “someone” offered the black stripper/hooker 2 million dollars to not say anything. When was this suppose to have happened? Mike Nifong was off and running with this case in the national media only hours after he figured he could use this case to get elected into office.

    I could go on, but I think this is enough for now.

  133. Sundance says:

    J58 – for a little while, over on w_bang blog, I thought that you might be becoming reasonable. Having read your posts on this one, I see that is not the case.

    Please answer me this: If you could choose any of the following four as the true event and eventual outcome, which would it be?
    A) Mangum telling the truth, lacrosse players found guilty,
    B) Mangum telling the truth, lacrosse players acquitted,
    C) Mangum lying, lacrosse players found guilty,
    D) Mangum lying, lacrosse players acquitted.

    Please choose the scenario and outcome that you honestly hope is true.

  134. Isaac says:

    Actually, Justice58, Mike Nifong has not been elected DA. He was appointed to his current position. He has since won the Democratic primary, in a district where the Republicans didn’t even bother to run a candidate. He won primarily because a large portion of the electorate, (the electorate beingregistered Democrats in NC), liked his “go after the white boys, regardless of evidence” attitude.

    Though he is now facing a possible write in candidate due to his perceived bungling of this case. Of course he will probably win the general election, but even the fact that the Republicans are considering running a write in candidate against him in a district where they didn’t even bother to run a candidate before the Duke rape case scandal began suggests that they are pretty confident that this is going to blow up in his face.

    You have to screw up pretty bad for a party to go from “we aren’t even going to run a candidate in this overwhelmingly Democrat district” to “we are going to run a write in candidate in this overwhelmingly Democratic district”.

    Why do you think Nifong wanted the case put off until after the election?

  135. Betty Friedan says:

    justice58 says “Listen Stef and the THING disguising herself as Betty Friedan…. I swear, when I see BF’s name on a blog, I really see the DEVIL himself and I hate him dearly.”

    LOL! When I see justice58’s name on a blog, I think of a two monkeys in a small cage jumping and screaming over a grape.

    But then again, two monkeys fighting over a grape makes more sense than justice58 insisting that a rape occurred just because a drunken stripper/hooker-with-a-substance-abuse-problem,-a-long-criminal-history,-and-pattern-of-making-false-accusations-of-rape-and-kidnapping said so..

    justice58 saysGo ahead, CRY FOUL, until the cows come home. Hey, it’s a free country.

    Wow! You’re just full of witty comebacks. Very orignal. *sarcasm* I realize that sarcasm is usually lost on the cognitive-impaired, so I thought it necessary to point it out to you (justice58).

    And you should go back “studying for your exam” because it seems that facts have a difficult time sinking into your head.

  136. justice58 says:

    Do you see this case being dropped? Nooooooooooooooooooo… Mike Nifong is an excellent DA and he is seeking justice, that’s why he has been elected DA and will continue to be elected DA. Go ahead, CRY FOUL, until the cows come home. Hey, it’s a free country.

  137. Betty Friedan says:

    You’re funny, but in a stupid way. You claim that “I” put black men in jail, and rape shield laws protect women from fools like you? Rape shield laws are what put black men in prison. So who’s the fool now Justice58, is “58″ in your screen name your IQ? No I think it gives you too much credit.

    And about Nifong. Although Nifong has destroyed his reputation and career – eventually facing a federal grand jury – he has friends in very high places who daily promote his political agenda under the guise of news reporting.

    Nancy (dis)Grace doesn’t care about victims if they’re falsely accused of rape, she and her friend Wendy Murphy will go to any extent to smear the victims and spin any evidence their way. Grace and Murphy mix commentary and reporting to “report” to the public how the rape really happened and how all the evidence that proves otherwise should be ignored.

    First she says she was raped by 20 men, then by five men, then by three men after a frustrated police officer told her to “pick a number!”

    First she didn’t say she was raped, then after being arrested she said she was raped, then she claimed the 2nd stripper helped with the rape and robbed her, and now she claims that the second stripper was separated from her, but the second stripper stated they were separated for less than 5 minutes.

    First she denied being raped, then she said she was only vaginally raped, then she said she was beaten, choked, and kicked after being dragged into the bathroom by three players, but the medical reports stated that there was only mild vaginal swelling and small scraped on her knee and ankle. No signs of a beating.

    First the stripper said she didn’t have *** for over a week, then she confessed that she had *** with her boyfriend, a vaginal *** toy at the party before the Duke party, with the two guys who drove her to the Duke party, and a “client” the day before. This women was dripping with DNA, non of which was from the boys.

    The boys willingly volunteered DNA samples to prove that they were innocent.

    The stripper’s father said the DNA will ID the rapist, but after the DNA came back negative, he claimed the stripper was raped with a broom, but the stripper confessed that she used a sexual toy vaginally in a show for a couple prior to making the false calim.

    Since the rape never occurred, the DA made sure to use only Duke Lacrosse players in the line up, and the stripper identified 3 boys from 6 different line ups, but she wa never able to pick out the same boys twice. She eventually “eeny meeny miney moed” two boys who weren’t even at the party.

    “If Mike Nifong doesn’t get disbarred after this, then there really is a corrupt system in Durham that protects rich white guys. In Nifong’s case – stupid rich white guys with transparent political agendas.”

  138. justice58 says:

    People like you have helped to put innocent black men in jail. Rape shield laws are to protect women from FOOLS like you trying to discredit the victim at every whim. Go rub the top of your head and stick your thumb into…. you know where.

  139. Betty Friedan says:

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/magazine/06/22/duke0626/index.html

    http://msnbc.msn.com/id/13392547/site/newsweek/

    It’s not fair that women can make and accusation that cause so much pain and destruction. Feminist have changed public policy to the point that denies the fair treatment of the accused in the courtroom.

    Today’s rape shield laws make it almost impossible to defend unless you’re super rich, that’s why the FBI discovered that over 33% of convicted rapist were wrongly accused and imprisoned, some innocent men spent over a decade in prison for rapes they didn’t commit, before being exonerated by DNA without even an apology.

  140. Betty Friedan says:

    Wow. You really should get a life. If you haven’t noticed, you and Nifong are the only ones who think this rape actually took place. Even both strippers know the truth.

  141. justice58 says:

    I’m speaking of the defense, oh dumb, ignorant one. I see you have come out of the wood works, licking your wounded chops. You sick b*st*rd. I saw no slaughtering in court, but I did see motions being slapped down so fast, I swear, it was before some could even blink, muchless finish their sentence.

  142. Betty Friedan says:

    You’re right. Nifong does look like ozzie, well both their brains seem to be fried, that’s one thing in common. Nifong…I mean ozzie is going to be slaughtered.

  143. justice58 says:

    Hey… Get you a ring side seat because the showdown is sure going to happen… and it won’t be pretty for old ozzie.

  144. mixonph says:

    I actually want to see this case go to trial (it won’t). I remember the comments by the *** clown (Nifong) when the defense asked for his removal from the case that “they didn’t want to go up against him” These high priced (I have no delusions about this) attorneys will (to borrow a wrestling phrase sorry best cliche` i can think of) stomp a mudhole in his *** and walk it dry. He has been out lawyered at every point what make anyone think he has the mental and legal savy to complete with Osborn and the boys.

  145. justice58 says:

    This case won’t be dismissed… It will move forward…. and one more thing… GOD BLESS MIKE NIFONG.

  146. Isaac says:

    Actually Justice58, if the photo lineup gets tossed, the accuser probably won’t be allowed to say “these are the men who raped me”.

    You get one bite at the apple, if the lineup is tainted that is usually it for IDs.

    It is a powerful scene, the victim (or witness) pointing and saying “that’s the guy”. Though, when you think about it, it is only powerful because people are stupid. A blind person, told which way the defendant’s table is could do it. It just means that the witness isn’t brain dead, not that he or she is right.

    This may explain why we don’t let prosecutors have their scene when the witness couldn’t pick the defendant out of a lineup.

  147. Betty Friedan says:

    Justice58, as usual you’re jumping up and down yelling and screaming gibberish. Most people find you annoying and just ignore you. Pesonally I think you’re pretty amusing, but this morning I want you to start your day off with a smile.

    So here’s a funny story:

    I was discussing the Duke Rape claim on this feminist blog site, and this woman was claiming it’s all about women enduring the pains of oppression like she having to shave her pubes before putting on her bikini to ride her bike at the beach, the resulting stubble irritates her skin which is all a part of being forced to live in a patriarchal society of rape and female oppression.

    I told “Ms Kate” if you don’t want to shave your thick pubes, then don’t! It’s as simple as that! Just comb a part in it to not confuse any birds trying to fly in! Sheesh! You’re claiming an oppressive patriarchal society oppresses you to shave your pubes? You’re oppressing yourself!

    LOL!

    I use to be embarrassed by stupid women who make all women look stupid, but now I realize that you have a right to exist too.

    toodles ;)

  148. Betty Friedan says:

    Newsweek investigated the evidence and concluded that the stripper lied.

    Okay before I thought Mike Nifong was an idiot because he spoke before knowing all the facts, but now I’ve come to realize that Nifong doesn’t care about facts, at least facts that conflicts with his, which is everything from the DNA to the rape exam.

    Because misandry feminist have been reacted so irrationally about this false rape claim, I recently tried to inject levity into my comments (i.e. see below), but there’s nothing funny about a DA acting with such negligence and gross contempt for justice. Nifong must be a misandry feminist too.

    “I love cherry pie, but I don’t like cherry picking. Some people are trying to claim that the defense attorneys are cherry picking, but more rational people claim Nifong is the champion cherry picker.

    But much of the information Mike Nifong leaked wasn’t so much cherry picked as it was artificially created. (i.e. date rape drug, his reasoning of no DNA match, etc…).

    Maybe Nifong is just clumsy and trying to make a pie, which would explain why he has egg on his face.”

    http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/journalgazette/14826913.htm
    http://johnsville.blogspot.com/

  149. justice58 says:

    Betty Friedan:

    Why won’t the defense release all 1300 pages to the public so we can see for ourselves?? (when hell freezes over) They are picking out specific parts and filing motions so that it becomes public information and therefore, trying to poison the jury pool all at the same time. YOU need to read the “amsterdam news”. I’m not backing down on where I stand on this case!!! This is NOT one-sided justice here. Mike Nifong is FIRMLY COMMITTED to this case and the VICTIM is STILL going forward and intends to testify in court and WILL stand and POINT OUT her attackers and say “THESE ARE THE MEN THAT RAPED ME”.

  150. Betty Friedan says:

    I love cherry pie, but I don’t like cherry picking. Some people are trying to claim that the defense attorneys are cherry picking, but I don’t see it.

    Much of the information Mike Nifong leaked wasn’t so much cherry picked as it was artificially made by him personally (i.e. date rape drug, his reasoning of no DNA match, etc…).

    Maybe Nifong is just clumsy and trying to make a pie, which would explain why he has egg on his face.

    http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/journalgazette/14826913.htm

  151. Betty Friedan says:

    The stripper originally claimed that the second stripper helped with the rape!

    Just when you think this case hit rock bottom, there’s about 50 feet f ****, then you find a sub-basement.

    If Mike Nifong doesn’t get disbarred after this, then there really is a corrupt system in Durham that protects rich white guys. In Nifong’s case – stupid rich white guys, but maybe I’m wrong. Maybe Nifong can turn a pig’s ear into a silk purse.

  152. justice58 says:

    Listen to me…. you have to hear both sides of the case and not just the defense’s spin. We have NOT heard Mike Nifong’s evidence therefore, it is stupid to form an opinion without it. Only vile ignorant people with no CARE for the real truth will accept this kind of dirty, vile tactics from the defense. We have a legal system here in America and it is not one-sided. The OLD SOUTH’S way of justice is over. It seems to me that YOU people want (you know who you are) this case to disappear because it’s a poor black woman and rich wealthly white guys, so you have chosen to only hear their side and DAMN to the rest of the story..The attorney’s want you to believe that it’s not about race and that’s a bald faced LIE. This is one of the reasons that RACE RELATIONS is so terrible here in this country. Don’t even try to tell me otherwise, remember I live here. Mike Nifong is fighting for justice and I give him praise for it. I’m for justice done the right way and not some high priced, vile, dirty, disrespectful tactics of low-down defense lawyers.

  153. Betty Friedan says:

    Just when you think this case couldn’t get any weaker, more information comes to light showing the foolishness of district attorney Mike Nifong.

    The only thing left to make this case even weaker would be the accuser herself finally coming forward to admit that she lied about the whole thing, which would make it even harder for district attorney to win the case, but Mike Nifong would probably ignore that piece of evidence as well in his quest to maliciously prosecute these young men.

  154. karllie says:

    Amen Justice 58. I love the fire in your convictions; the zeal in your moral stance; and the way you don’t let the facts get in the way of your argument. You go girl!

  155. justice58 says:

    The defense will always try to poke holes in the prosecutors case therefore, its nothing new. As you can see, Mr. Nifong is GOING to continue with this case and take it to trial. We don’t know what he has and he’s not disclosing anything right now. He has been a prosecutor for 27 years and knows what he is doing. We will wait for the trial. You can take all your posts and shove it all the way up to your azz and then some… YOU… betty friedan… are a sorry poor pathetic low life thug that want rapists to walk the street and continue to rape innocent women and children. We as a society, will not take this **** anymore. Black women have suffered unthinkable ATROCITY in the OLD SOUTH and it is time to say NO MORE!!! All the lawyering up is not going to get these men off. It’s only going to make them dig deeper in their pockets.

  156. Betty Friedan says:

    Reported in the Heraldsun

    Another police note obtained by the defense says the alleged victim acknowledged having two beers before arriving at the party and that she and Pittman both had a rum and coke after their arrival.

    The accuser also told police that she used a vibrating *** toy during a dance in a hotel room for a male and female, but she told police that she had not had *** in the week before the party, the note says.

    However, a male friend of the accuser said that he had *** with her that week and that he drove her to three other sexual encounters, according to the friend’s statement.

    Osborn also claims in the court documents that the nurse who examined the alleged victim was in training and not yet certified.

    http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/06/08/duke.lacrosse/index.html?section=cnn_topstories

  157. SyniC says:

    Honestly, how old are you justice?
    I’ve seen a first year high schooler argue with more logic and insight on a topic than you have on this. Do I have to point out your own blatent contradiction of your statements and/or arguments:

    Here you say this:
    “I know that you all haters of women believe that these boys/men did’t rape this woman but they did. They will be found guilty and sent to prison and you all can go with them if you like.”

    Then these:
    “If we pass judgement by listening to only the defense, then, what do we need a legal system for? Any one and everyone deserves their day in court. Keep an OPEN MIND,because all lives matter.”

    “I just want the victim in the duke case to have her day in court and let the courts decide. We have only heard the defense spin their side. If she is lying, then she will have to pay the price. Let the legal system work….”

    Whereas your latest comment says this again:
    “LISTEN TO ME….. THEY WILL BE FOUND GUILTY. YOU MUST BE SCARED. I suggest that they confess and maybe it will lessen their punishment.”

    It’s highly ironic that you ever made a statement about someone else’s lack of logic and common sense,”LOGIC and COMMON SENSE:(for which you have absolutely none)”, because obviously there is a ton of logic in juxtoposing your own point of view then isn’t there. I guess it comes with your open mind, hey.

    Please don’t waste the time of the people actually trying to discuss this topic, input is fine and be sure to have an opinion, but do not express it numerously then disregard and abuse any others who beg to differ.

    Oh and for the records, you comment of “your opinion, it’s like a nose, everyone has one.” is reffering to the fact that all people can house an opinion, meaning that because of the relative stupidity of most people, it does not count for much at all unless you can back it up. You do not back up any of your opinions, and therefore took your own comment out of context and actually pointed out how useless your comments and/or opinions are. Give up, my left foot’s opinion would hold more value than yours.

  158. justice58 says:

    These duke 3 are NOT innocent…. “are you kidding me” so just spare me the BS. They want the public to believe that nothing happened that night and it’s going to be proven that they raped, kidnapped and beat the victim. These FANTASTIC lies that they are telling will be UNCOVERED. I suggest that they confess and maybe it will lessen their punishment. Hey, I’m just keeping it REAL.

  159. Betty Friedan says:

    Justice58, I really hate to disappoint you but I’m not these other posters. I have limited time, so you will find- if you only checked- that most of my posts are not responses, there are just basic facts.

    Here’s more facts from the DA’s files.

    Police investigating the Duke University lacrosse team on rape allegations “omitted” notes from a second dancer at the party, who told authorities the alleged victim had been drinking, was acting “crazy” and that her colleague’s accusation was a “crock,” a defense attorney said Thursday.

    In court documents filed Thursday, attorney Kirk Osborn said that Durham, North Carolina, police “intentionally, deliberately and/or recklessly omitted” information from a probable cause affidavit — information Osborn says would have persuaded the judge not to file felony charges against three of the players. The district attorney’s office did not return a call seeking comment.

    http://lawdogbehindthebadge.blogspot.com/2006/06/latest-on-duke-rape-case.html

    This is terrible! What these poor innocent boys have gone through, and the DA helped with pursuing this false accusation.

  160. Isaac says:

    Looks like I was right about justice58 reacting to a calm, reasoned argument with raving hysterics rather than any attempt at refuting the argument. justice58, assuming you aren’t just a troll, you might want to try an anger management class.

    As I said, justice58, you have to deal with the facts against your position, not just the ones for them. In the Federal system, the prosecutor is not required to present exculpatory evidence to a grand jury. In the state systems some do require it, some don’t. I don’t know which way NC goes on that. If they don’t require exculpatory evidence in the grand jury then consider this hypothetical case.

    A man throws away his wallet, has a friend beat him up, and accuses someone who he knows, and can thus pick out of a lineup of mugging him. He doesn’t know that at the time of the alleged mugging, the man he is accusing was thousands of miles away, and a guest on the Tonight Show.

    The DA decides to prosecute anyway. So he goes to the grand jury, shows them pictures of the accuser, all beat up. He puts on the accuser who tesifies that the accused did it. He doesn’t mention the ironclad alibi the accused has. So the grand jury has to decide if there is a strung suspicion that the accused committed the crime. With the injuries and testimony, they would easily indict, because they wouldn’t know about the alibi.

    Similarly, in this case: If all the GJ heard was “injuries consistant with rape” and “picked them out of a photo lineup (no need to mention it was a rigged linup, this is a GJ, not a trial) and “I was raped” by the accuser…

    Of course they are going to have a strong suspicion. Heck, you have heard the exculpatory evidence (ignored it, but heard it) and you still think a guy who was getting his picture taken at an ATM at the time did it.

    Interesting question though, in states where the DA does have to present exculpatory evidence, does he have to do it if he doesn’t know about it? If not, and if that is the rule in NC, that may explain Mr. Nifong’s reluctance to hear any.

    As for the lacross players lying about their names. Did the women tell the lacross players their real names? Or other identifying information? Do you really think that someone hiring a stripper would never lie about their name unless they intended to rape her? Do you think that someone trying to get strippers to show up at all, or trying to get a lower rate might lie about the number of people at the party?

    None of their lies are proof that they raped anyone.

    Oh, and in case you were talking about me in that last post. No, I am not posting here under any other name, though Isaac isn’t my real name. If justice58 isn’t your real name, does that make you a rapist?

  161. justice58 says:

    Oh yes…..Betty Friedan…. I know that’s you posting under all these aka’s. LISTEN TO ME….. THEY WILL BE FOUND GUILTY. YOU MUST BE SCARED. I suggest that they confess and maybe it will lessen their punishment.

  162. justice58 says:

    A grandjury is not going to indict people just for the hell of it. ” ARE YOU KIDDING ME”… you need to get real and keep it real. These men started out lying about their names, how many was going to be at the party, and that the party was for track team and so on. LIES LIES LIES. Dave Evans has told some fantastic lies. Why did they all haul *** out of their after the police was called. The defense would like everyone to believe that no evidence exist, so give me a f*****g break. They will stand trial and be found guilty guilty guilty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  163. Isaac says:

    Oops. In my first post I meant to write “shouldn’t be” throwing baseless accusations not “should be” throwing them.

  164. Isaac says:

    My previous post dealt with the question of whether the defendants factually comitted the crime. This one deals with the evidence toward identity likely to be presented at trial. Remember that in order to get a conviction, the PA must prove beyond a reasonable doubt both the existence of a crime and the identity of the criminal. Let us take it as read, for the sake of argument that the accuser was raped.

    So what evidence ties these particular men to the crime?

    1) Picked out of a photo line-up by the accuser. This is the most damning piece of evidence against these defendants. The problem is that it will probably be excluded at trial. In order to root out mis-identification, the usual procedure is to provide a picture of a suspect mixed in with several people who are not suspects. This was not done here. Instead, the lineup just consisted of possible suspects. Anyone chosen from the lineup was going to be charged with this crime, with no way of knowing if it was a false positive. If the judge doesn’t throw it out, it would probably result in the conviction being tossed on appeal. Furthermore, once this kind of mistake has been made, there are no do-overs. So if the lineup goes, the accuser would not be allowed to say “those guys did it”.

    2) Nothing else tying the first two defendants to the crime, rather than anyone else there that night.

    3) DNA consistent with Evans (but not a slam dunk match) on a press on nail in a garbage can in his own bathroom. That may make it to the jury.

    No other evidence ties these particular defendants to this alleged crime.

    With no evidence of identity before the court as to the first two defendants, the judge would have to dismiss the charges. Juries get to decide what evidence is credible, but if there isn’t any evidence at all, the judge can’t let the case go to the jury. No point, since the jury’s decision has to be reasonable in light of the evidence presented to them.

    Which brings us to Evans.

    Case is really thin there, but if the defense attorney doesn’t put on a case, the jury might be able to find him guilty on the basis of his DNA being at the scene with no alternate explanation.

    However, there is an alternate explanation. His bathroom, his garbage, of course his DNA is in there. This even if he wasn’t the one who fished it out (some poster said that, first I have heard of it).

    This is all without saying one word about the credibility of the accuser. They don’t even have to put the accused on the stand for any of it. If the match is poor enough, say 80-90%, the defense may say to the DNA expert “so you can’t be sure this is even his DNA. Either way he can say to the cop “so you found this in his garbage in his bathroom? What else did you find in there? Did any of that stuff have his DNA on it? You didn’t test it? So isn’t it true that the DNA could have gotten on the nail from something else in the garbage can? Or if Evans threw it away the next day?”

    An appeals court can over-rule a jury verdict if there is no way a reasonable jury could convict on the evidence presented. With the problems with the nail DNA, it would be a close call whether a conviction would even be allowed to stand, if the jury somehow didn’t see reasonable doubt there.

    Again, nothing about the credibility of the accuser, nothing about alibis, nothing even arguing that no rape was comitted.

    Then factor in the rest of the evidence. That the accuser had bruises before the party, that she had *** with her boyfriend before the party. That the accusation was made in the shadow of involuntary commision, that the accuser didn’t say anything about a rape until she had a motive to lie. That the accuser described a violent, prolonged assault by three men, that should have left DNA on her, inside her, and under the fingernails actually on her fingers, and yet, no DNA from Evans or any other lacross player was found.

    Factor in that the person who made a report of injuries consistent with rape will be asked on cross-examination whether the injuries could from something other than rape? Look at these pictures taken at the party, before the alleged rape, etc.

    This case isn’t just weak, it is practically non-existent.

  165. Isaac says:

    justice58, there have been a few people slinging baseless insults at the accuser in this case, and they should be. There is no indication that she is a prostitute (not that there’s anything wrong with that).

    There have also been those presenting the facts of the case. You have been ranting and insulting people and up until your last post I haven’t seen you talk at all about the facts. Judging from your past posts, I expect that this post will result in gratuitous insults from you, but not a calm refutation of any argument made here.

    I suspect that the facts that you stated (mis-stated in some cases see below) were the ones presented to the grand jury to get an indictment.

    Unfortunately, getting a conviction, or winning a rational argument requires dealing with facts that go against your position, not just the ones for your position.

    Facts which are consistent with both theories (that they are innocent or guilty) do not prove or disprove either one.

    As for the facts you pointed out:

    1) Evans’ DNA on the nail. Two problems with that. First, the DNA tests didn’t match him; they just failed to rule him out. Second, the nail was fished out of a garbage can in his bathroom. His DNA would likely have been on it regardless of whether he raped her.

    2) She picked him out of a lineup. She picked him out of the second or third lineup conducted, after failing to pick him out earlier. The lineup she picked him out of consisted entirely of the white lacross players. Any choice she made would have picked out a lacross player. Closing her eyes and throwing darts at a set of pictures would have picked out a lacross player. So if they are innocent, she may have just picked him at random. She also said that the attacker she identified as Evans had a mustache, which Evans did not.

    3) Collin Finnerty was charged with attacking someone elsewhere. What does that have to do with this case? He got into a fight with someone, he isn’t charged with raping anyone else. You can’t convict someone of one crime just because they have been charged in another.

  166. justice58 says:

    You are one sorry person for slamming people with special needs. It tells me so much about you. You are one tastless “b*****d. All of your insults, meaningless rants about the victim in the rape case will not change the outcome of what they did to her.She was raped by these b*****ds. They will be found guilty and sent to prison. I don’t care if you are an attorney or whatever. The fact still remains that Evans’ DNA was found under her fingernail, she picked him out of a lineup without any prompting by anyone. She had no way of knowing that COLLIN FINNERTY was charged with a violent act in DC. It sure makes it fit together with ganging up on someone. I HOPE THEY BURN IN HELL FOR WHAT THEY DID.

  167. Mixonp says:

    Well at least she can keep her cool. I heard this once it is funny but politically incorrect sorry. You know fighting over the internet with faceless people with no responsibility for the truth is like the special olympics even if you win your still retarded.

    The prosecuter has released everything they have so far and nothing is the smoking gun that screams this woman was raped. Why would the men, stop calling them boys they are men, help the police search the bathroom BTW don’t say they cleaned it up no evidence of fact. Why volunteer to let the police search the house in the first place, one one the men indicted lived there.

    Why was the woman only shown pictures of the lacrosse team i always thought there were supposed to be no interested parties in a line-up? Are there any lawyers out there please answer that one.

    Another lawyer question

    Can a lawyer be punished for using three (maybe) innocent men to futher his political career?

    I have not made up my mind if there has even been a crime? But unlike most here I can see both sides? If there is no invetigation then the white men got away with raping a black woman.

    Please if someone has something that says “yes a rape occurred” or “here is the smoking gun” please send a link.

    BTW the google “duke rape accuser”

  168. justice58 says:

    Betty…. you are now posting comments to yourself and admiring your own words… YOU ARE SO FREAKING SICK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. GO BACK TO HELL WHERE YOUR RELATIVES ARE…YOU SICK PATHETIC FREAK!!!!!!!!

  169. SyniC says:

    You know its early in the morning when you make as many errors as I did in the above post. Sorry about that.

  170. SyniC says:

    Just from random web surfing I have found my way here and read each and every post on this page. Very intruiging, as I am not an american I haven’t heard about this case, but simply from the facts presented its is highly apparently who is at fault here. Bad luck to that stripper I guess.

    As you have said before Betty, I know if probably means nothing but I admire your work, very good display of argument and fact, if not faultless. As for the people opposing your statements, I do not understand their motives for continued posting, its quite obviously self-inflicted embarrassment.

    I’ll come back in a bit to see the updates.

  171. justice58 says:

    Ohhhhhhh , Nowwwwww you people love to bring up the Scottsboro boys…..YOU UGLY HYPOCRITE….GO GET YOU A LIFE. YOU MAKE SICK TO THE CORE BRINGING UP THE SCOTTSBORO CASE AS IF YOU CARE. THE SHOE IS ON THE OTHER FOOT NOW.

  172. justice58 says:

    Betty F…. You are such a liar, you’re nothing but a sorry wanna be. I can’t help it if you can’t accept the fact that these guys are going to be found guilty. As you may have heard, another duke lacrosse player arrested for drunk driving, possession of marijuana, it seems to no end with these duke lacrosse players. THEY JUST DON’T GET IT. WHAT KIND OF MORANS ARE HAVING THESE KIDS!!! YOU KNOW, AS THEY SAY…. THE APPLE DOESN’T FALL FAR FROM THE TREE!!! THE PARENTS ARE TO BLAME FOR RAISING POOR, SUCH POOR EXCUSE FOR KIDS. Ohhhhh, as I was saying, Mike Nifong will win this case and you’ll be hanging your head in shame… ON WITH THE TRIAL!!!

  173. Betty Friedan says:

    Comparing LAX case to that of Scottsboro Nine

    I am a college instructor who teaches criminal justice and a criminal defense attorney. In my entire career I have never seen such a bizarre and unfair case as the one against three Duke lacrosse players.

    I teach a class about a similar case in American history, the Scottsboro Nine. In March 1931, a group of nine black teen-agers was charged with rape on incredibly flimsy evidence in Scottsboro, Ala. The nine were originally charged with the rape of two white women. Even after one woman testified that she lied about the rape, the nine teens continued to face rape charges and the threat of death by execution.

    In the Scottsboro case, the two women were part-time prostitutes, but that didn’t matter, nor did it matter that at least one of the boys was known to be physically unable to have ***, and two of the boys were only 13. Like Durham, the real issue was race.

    In Scottsboro, nine young men were wrongly charged and condemned because they were black, and today the Duke lacrosse players have, in my opinion, been wrongly charged and condemned because they are white and the alleged victim is black.

    The one constant with respect to the two cases is racism. I often ask my students if it possible for blacks to discriminate against whites in the same type of mindless ignorance as the KKK or the way the mob went after the Scottsboro Nine. The answer I receive is yes, and my students point to Durham as proof.

    JOSEPH R. GUTHEINZ JR

  174. Betty Friedan says:

    I am a lawyer in a rural county in a rural state, and although most of my work these days is taken up practicing civil law, for the first 5 – 7 years I did a lot of criminal defense work.
    Anyway, as a result of the demographics of my practice area, I have had the opportunity to defend clients charged with rather heinous and violent criminal acts, including rape, murder, etc.
    Two observations:

    1. whether this woman was raped or not, these young men are going to found not guilty if they go to trial — barring some unforeseen discovery by the police, the facts for the PA flat-out stink and most competent criminal defense attorneys will run him out of the courtroom on these — drunk, verge of being passed-out stripper with criminal record for car theft and tried to run over police officer who is smiling in photos taken as she is leaving the place — if the accusations are true, it’s tragic, but as a lawyer you work for the guy paying the bill, so she will be destroyed when she testifies. I had a similar case once where the alleged victim admitted during cross-examination at the preliminary hearing that prior to the “rape,” by a college athlete — football player at a party, that she had stopped to pick up a six-pack to drink on the way to the party, she had drunk six -eight 16 ounce plastic cups half full of wine and had smoked a joint with one other person. She was a recent graduate (graduated two months after the alleged incident and had to fly in from Texas to testify) in Nursing and after leaving the “rape scene” in the early morning hours, instead of driving to the emergency room at the local hospital one mile from her former college dorm room, she drove for 3 hours to a hospital near her parent’s house. There was testimony from other partygoers — acquaintences of hers and who did not know my client — that she “fell asleep” for a little while after she smoked the pot. This poor girl even brought a squeeze ball to use while testifying to relieve stress (her psychologist had receommended it). Unfortunately for this young woman, the facts left me, as the young man’s lawyer, but to dig and berate, and ridicule and demean everything she had done and flat-out state that everything was inconsistent with her allegations — by the time we got to trial, she backed out on the first day and told the PA she would never testify about the rape again. My guy walked. He always told me he was innocent. You never really know, though.

    2. I suppose the PA is running with this b/c he is facing an election in 2008, and this is a great time to start appealing to his voter base. The Duke students don’t vote there.

    Written By: Kevin Duffy

  175. Betty Friedan says:

    The evidence will find these boys innocent, and the stripper will end up where she belongs, in jail. She’s a pathetic excuse for a human being.

  176. Betty Friedan says:

    Jastice58. as usual you have nothing of value t say. Just because I report the fact unslanted by feminist propoganda doesn’t make me a feminist. And what does my political affiliation have to do with the stripper lying about being raped?

  177. watchdog 101 says:

    The jury will find the 3 indicted players guilty of rape, kidnapping and sexual assault. They should have been charged with a hate crime. This will be a lesson well learned for them and any others that have the same mentality.

  178. justice58 says:

    These three men are responsible for their own actions and mind you, their own erections. Everyone has a choice and they chose this fate themselves. Start yelling at them for trying to degrade women because they assumed they could get away with it. We’re not putting up with it ANYMORE.

  179. justice58 says:

    Betty… Stop surporting what the crooked REPUBLICANS tell you… HAVE A MIND OF YOUR OWN…Oops… YOU DON’T HAVE ONE…Myyyyy Badddd

  180. Betty Friedan says:

    If There’s A Card Up the D.A.’s Sleeve, the Law Requires Him to Play It Soon
    Some pundits have suggested that the only explanation for the District Attorney’s pressing on in the light of strong evidence that the defendants are innocent, is that he has a card up his sleeve. If so, then he needs to show that card, pronto.
    The discovery statutes in North Carolina – as in most states – do not allow prosecutors to play “hide the ball.” This is a judicial proceeding, not a magic show. So D.A. Nifong will have to reveal this evidence sometime before trial.
    He ought to opt to reveal it right now – to give the defense a chance to counter it. When evidence suggesting innocence is as strong as it is in this case, it’s wrong to just let the case go to trial and “see what the jury says.” These three young men’s live will be forever affected, even if they are acquitted. Even an arrest leaves a scar; the scar of trial is far deeper.
    D.A. Nifong should listen to the defense, and should drop the case unless he has strong evidence supporting the accuser. Moreover, if he does have such evidence, he should show it to us now. The defendants have been forthcoming – especially Evans, who volunteered to, and then did, take a lie detector test. The prosecution should follow their example.

  181. Betty Friedan says:

    The D.A.’s Unusual Hostility to Even Viewing Defense Evidence
    Defense lawyers have repeatedly implored District Attorney Nifong to meet with them and to examine the evidence that favors the defendants. But Nifong has said no – with an attitude that boils down to, “Talk to the hand.”
    That’s unusual. More often than not, prosecutors are quite open to exchanging – or at least being entertained by – the defense’s evidence. After all, it provides them with a valuable preview of what the defense’s case may ultimately look like in court. Prosecutors are legally required to turn over certain evidence to the defense, but no obligation runs the other way. And since the defense goes second, prosecutors may not be able to effectively counter defense “surprises.”
    For prosecutors, meeting with the defense is thus typically a win-win situation: If they are convinced to drop the case, then that’s embarrassing – but far less than as a loss at trial would have been. If they aren’t convinced to drop the case, they’ve gotten a precious new edge at trial. And either way, both the reality and appearance of fairness to the defendants are enhanced.
    Giving a defendant a lie detector test, in contrast, isn’t a win-win situation: It may hurt prosecutors’ case if the results are released to the public. (Lie detector results are rarely – if ever – admissible in court.) But at the same time, a lie detector test – while risky, and far from perfect – is likely to get prosecutors closer to the truth, which is supposed to be what they are after.
    As noted above, in this case, Evans claims Nifong refused to give Evans a lie detector test. (He ultimately took one himself, and passed.) In my professional experience, a prosecutor’s refusing to administer a lie detector test to a defendant is nearly unheard-of. The defendant’s answers – and the lie detector’s response to them – may provide the prosecutor with a road map to what his vulnerabilities on the stand may be.
    Just as meeting with the defense previews the defense case for prosecutors, administering a lie detector can preview the defendant’s testimony, as well as his on-the-stand demeanor, showing prosecutors what kind of a witness he will be. (Confident? Nervous? Shifty? Solid?)
    I can’t help but believe that, were any of these defendants to assert that they had proof that a crime was indeed committed, this district attorney would be all ears. Suppose, for instance, that Seligmann or Evans were to turn on Finnerty, to try to save themselves – surely Nifong would happily hear them out. So how can the prosecutor justify, then, turning a blind eye to evidence of any of the accused’s innocence?

  182. Betty Friedan says:

    The Problems with the New DNA Evidence
    Besides the accuser’s testimony, prosecutors also presented to the grand jury the results of a second round of DNA testing.
    Readers may recall that the first round of DNA testing was, if anything, exculpatory: There was no DNA match whatsoever linking any of the forty-six lacrosse players whose DNA was taken, to the accuser.
    Following those results, D.A. Nifong reportedly hired a private lab to re-test certain samples. In so doing, the new lab found a possible connection between defendant Evans and the accuser’s discarded fake fingernail, found in the trash bin inside the bathroom.
    To begin, it’s awfully odd that the fake fingernail found its way into the trash bin in the first place, if a rape really occurred, and if the fake fingernail broke off during the victim’s struggle, as she claims. No victim would clean up after her accusers; she would flee the scene. And if a culprit had the presence of mind to clean up — realizing that the fake fingernail might be evidence against him — surely he wouldn’t just drop it in the trash can in the very room where the rape occurred, for police to easily find.
    Significantly, too, defense attorneys claim the DNA material was found on the front of the nail — not on the underside, where it would logically have lodged had the accuser scratched and clawed at her attackers as she claims.
    But even putting these points aside, the DNA connection to Evans is weak. To begin, this isn’t remotely close to the kind of “match” you may be familiar with from CSI – the kind where the odds of a false positive are infinitesimally small. Indeed, “match” here is a misnomer. All that can be said is that the DNA is “consistent” with DNA voluntarily supplied early on by Evans.
    Shocking? Hardly. Evans lived in the house, and therefore may have, from time to time, blown his nose, swabbed an ear, or otherwise disposed of DNA-laden waste into that very trashcan.
    Moreover, it was reportedly Evans himself who fished the fake nail from the garbage, voluntarily handing it over to police and maybe, just maybe, shedding some skin cells in the process.
    As for direct evidence of ***, there is none; none from any of the forty lacrosse players, that is.
    While the second round of DNA testing proved that ***** was found inside the accusers vaginal cavity, spokespersons close to the defense are confident the source of the ***** is the accuser’s own boyfriend.
    In sum, after cross-examination, there is little, if any, chance that a jury will give weight to this DNA evidence. It clashes with the accuser’s own story, and it’s as fully consistent with Evans’s innocence as it is with his guilt.

  183. Betty Friedan says:

    The Problems with the Accuser’s “Identification” of Evans
    In my prior columns, I discussed the problems with evidence against Seligmann – who has strong evidence supporting an alibi – and, to a lesser extent, against Finnerty. The evidence against Evans is also weak, maybe even more so.
    Evans reportedly was not initially indicted, with the other two, because the accuser couldn’t identify him with certainty (only with “90 percent certainty,” in her words) from a photo lineup. Ten percent doubt sounds like a lot like reasonable doubt to me – and perhaps, at least initially, it sounded that way to D.A. Nifong too. And if the accuser herself has reasonable doubt, how can a prosecution go forward?
    The accuser’s lack of certainty is even more worrisome in light of the fact that the photo lineup was grossly biased. It included only Duke lacrosse players – meaning that the accuser had no choice but to select a Duke lacrosse player if she were to select anyone at all. And this photo lineup was apparently the sole means of identification for all three defendants.
    Finally, and perhaps most disturbingly, the accuser is reported to have said that Evans’s photo “looks just like [one of my assailants] without the mustache.” According to Evans’s defense lawyer, Evans has never worn a mustache. And party photos support this contention.
    For all these reasons, the accuser’s identification testimony is likely to be destroyed upon cross-examination.

  184. Betty Friedan says:

    The Mounting Evidence in Favor of Defendants’ Innocence
    All three defendants in the Duke lacrosse case have unfailingly and repeatedly proclaimed their innocence – Evans doing so most eloquently, on behalf of all three men, in a brief public comment following his being formally charged.
    In fact, in a highly unusual move, newly indicted defendant Evans went to so far as to volunteer to take a lie detector test at the direction of law enforcement. When the D.A. refused, Evans enlisted a top polygrapher to administer the test anyway. He passed.
    Thus far, the defense camp has come forward with a host of seemingly reliable, exculpatory evidence -evidence that will be admissible in court, and that is likely to sway a jury. I’m not talking about, maybe, kinda, sorta, or could be, exculpatory evidence either. I’m talking about weighty evidence – receipts, photos, phone records, alibi witnesses, an absence of DNA, and now actual DNA – that directly supports the defendants’ claims of innocence.
    A plethora of proof supporting a defendant’s claim of innocence – not just the government’s failure to carry its burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt — is a rare pearl in the practice of criminal defense. It should cause the D.A. to reassess his case.

  185. Betty Friedan says:

    Blind to evidence
    On Monday, May 15, a Durham County grand jury handed up a third indictment in the nothing-short-of-notorious Duke rape case. This latest indictment charges the lacrosse team’s captain, David Evans, with first-degree rape, first-degree sexual assault, and first-degree kidnapping.
    The charges against Evans are identical to those handed up last month against fellow players Reade Seligmann and Collin Finnerty. Still, this final indictment does come as a bit of surprise. As I detailed in a prior column, the cases against Seligmann and Finnerty appear quite weak. As I’ll discuss in this column, the case against Evans may be even shakier. It’s true that the grand jury did return indictments against Evans, and previously against the other two. It’s also true that the District Attorney, Mike Nifong, is forging ahead — seemingly undeterred.
    But Nifong’s judgment has been poor all along- and the old adage that a D.A. can get a grand jury to “indict a ham sandwich” shouldn’t be forgotten. Without defense attorneys there to test the prosecutor’s evidence via the invaluable process of cross-examination, weak evidence can be made to look pretty convincing. It’s not the grand jury’s fault; it’s just the reality that if you only hear one side, you tend to believe it.
    At least a ham sandwich has some weight to it. As I’ll explain in this column, the Evans indictment – like the two that preceded it – does not. The very evidence that may have convinced the grand jury – accuser identification and new DNA evidence – is just the kind that will ultimately fall apart when defense attorneys finally do get to cross-examine the witnesses presenting it.

  186. justice58 says:

    “Betty”,,, Did the defense show you any of the 1278 pages of evidence against the indicted players. (I didn’t think so). Sooooo, dream on and have fun in your little world. BTW, newsweek said, Mike Nifong “HINTED”, that’s the key word here. YOU GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT AND STOP TWISTING THE FACTS TO FIT YOUR MINDLESS THINKING.

  187. Betty Friedan says:

    Justass58, please instead of attacking me, why don’t you just stick to the facts?

    The stripper lied about a rape occuring, and Mike Nifong lied to make these charges stick, but the truth will come out and you and your croanies will be proven wrong again.

    Women, whether stirppers or not, who make false accusations of rape hurt real victims of rape. You blindly supporting these vile women are just as guilty.

  188. Betty Friedan says:

    Dear Justass58, LOL!

    Here’s a little article I found that sums up the character of Mike Nifong:

    Unfortunately, that was not the end of Nifong’s lies. He told Newsweek that it would be likely that toxicology tests would show that Mangum had been given an alleged “date rape” drug (supposedly by the lacrosse players), which was responsible for her condition. However, neither the police nor Nifong had ordered any toxicology tests. In other words, Nifong made a claim to Newsweek that he had to have known on its face was a lie.
    (Someone I respect very much has known Nifong for many years and says that he is not dishonest, but rather has backed himself into a corner. This was a “damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don’t” situation, he tells me. While that might be true, Nifong also has done enough things that strain his credibility.)
    Lest I let Nifong off with just telling a few whoppers, there is even more. On the day after the alleged attack, police came to the house where the party was held and the occupants, including Evans, showed police around, retrieved material for them and even went to the station and spent three hours talking to police without attorneys being present. Soon afterward, Nifong publicly claimed that the lacrosse players were “putting up a blue wall of silence” and were purposely covering up a “crime.” Moreover, he threatened to charge the other players with “accessory to kidnapping, assault, and rape” charges unless they came forward.
    Shortly thereafter, Nifong hinted to the press that at least one player was willing to turn state’s evidence. He based his claim upon an email that allegedly one player had sent to his teammates. However, it turned out that the email was a fraud, and, according to the attorneys who represent the players, the fake email almost surely had been concocted by the police. So, we have Nifong implicated in another falsehood.
    William L. Anderson, Ph.D.
    Frostburg State University in Maryland

  189. justice58 says:

    Betty Friedan… YOU NEED SERIOUS HELP. ALL OF YOU INCLUDING CHRIS, SOW, RANGER BOB AND THE WHOLE CREW. YOUR UGLY COMMENTS MEANS NOTHING. ALL OF YOU WILL HANG YOUR HEAD IN SHAME WHEN YOU HEAR MIKE NIFONG’S EVIDENCE IN COURT. I DON’T WANT YOU TO CRY BECAUSE THE DUKE BOYS PUNKED YOU. (THIS WILL BE SUSAN SMITH ALL OVER AGAIN).

  190. Betty Friedan says:

    As usual, Claudo, justice58, woke dude, granny… Your comparison to monkeys was just in the way you argue: no facts, blind emotional rants, baseless opinions, possible lies or delusional fantasies, devoid of common sense and reason, etc… basically worthless noise.

    Monkey posts; although, annoying, can also be fun if you don’t take them (Claudo, justice58, woke dude, granny, etc.. ) seriously and just throw peanuts at them to make them jump and scream.

  191. Betty Friedan says:

    So a cop saying she was “dead drunk” is beyond reasonable doubt?- john t
    *******************************
    there are 30+ witnesses at the party who are testifying that the “AV” was so incapacitated, she couldn’t dance. An hour later, there is a police officer and a host of other witnesses who testify she is unconscious, and collapses when she tries to stand. She goes to hospital, yet there is nothing about assault, nor about serious illness after examination by trained medics.
    I am just wondering what any reasonable person can conclude from this information. That the witnesses are all lying ? that she is stone cold sober ? There is a simple, and all too well-known explanation- that the “AV” is intoxicated with drink or drugs, yet people are adopting the most contorted position to avoid even countenancing that which is as plain as the nose on your face.

    Posted by: torquemada2

  192. Betty Friedan says:

    the AV would have appeared disoriented… -claudo
    ******************************
    “disoriented” ? I think the phrase you are looking for is “passed-out drunk”, or maybe “unconscious” ? I am amazed at how carefully you consider the EVIDENCE, before trying to ignore it, and pass on to your fantasies about the racist white rapists.

    Strange thing is, that there are violent rape events. The women involved are sometimes brutalised, and left unconscious. These events are inevitably associated with the most horrendous physical evidence on the victim- skull fractures, terrible bruising and lacerations. Strangely, that doesn’t seem to be the case when the Duke “AV” passed out. Hell, that is just some of that inconvenient evidence stuff- let’s forget all about it!

    Posted by: torquemada2

  193. Betty Friedan says:

    rape requires a higher standard of proof for the defense as well as the prossecution- claudo
    **********************
    D’oh. The standard of proof is the same; it is beyond reasonable doubt.

  194. Betty Friedan says:

    this is hearsay.” -Claudo
    **********************
    the inquisitor says- you should only use words when you know what they mean. Do you know what hearsay is ?

    You also don’t understand what is at issue. If I wish to make a case that someone is drunk while driving, or using drugs while driving, there are statutory tests to be applied to prove these specific crimes.

    If I wish to say that someone is intoxicated, it is sufficient to note the effects (unconsciousness, etc), and the absence of medical explanations (she went to hospital and wasn’t treated for head trauma or illness). One of the officers said she was (if I recall) “passed-out drunk”.

    Of course, you are determined to ignore the facts of the matter; that she was unconscious, and fell over when revived. Hey; maybe you think this is normal behaviour ?

    Posted by: torquemada2

  195. Betty Friedan says:

    Torquemada2 -

    “Taylor the Driver” was one of 3 who pumped the prostitute before she showed up for her stripper gig. According to the “stripper” herself.

    “This is a very interesting guy; he must have known the AV’s state before she got to the party, and he “said she did not seem intoxicated when he dropped her off that night”.But he did spend 1.75 hours with her, while she showered and showed off lingerie. It then took 45-60 minutes for them to get to the house at 610, apparently. I would be asking a lot of questions about this guy and his story.”

    They wuz partying. They wuz scoring blow. She doesn’t just offer 3-holers to her drivers for the fun of it. They get the drugs so they get the nookie.
    ============================
    Claudo – “Chris’s words – misogynistic??? Lack of objectivity??? Chris/Betty/You Know I’m Right/Goob – you can keep changing your name but your vile hatred of woman and public assistance gives you away every time. Your comments are vile.”

    No, if anything, the public reviles the poverty pimps like yourself in the welfare system that guide clients like the accuser-prostitute on how to milk the taxpayer almost as much as they revile the welfare parasites themselves. You and others like you Claudo, are simply their enablers and facilitators who willfully cover up the taxpayer fraud they see every day rather than “betray” their “clients”.

    Posted by: Chris Ford

  196. Betty Friedan says:

    Time stamps can be altered on cameras. The only way to check the veracity of the stamp is to take apart the camera. Has this been done? With that in mind, could the picture of the “smiling” woman arriving be a picture of the woman arriving at the party. There is a photo of just the woman’s leg dangling out of the car – can we prove that this leg belonged to that woman? Can we say with certainty that the photo of the “bruises” wasn’t altered. Was the bank photo verified by Wachovia bank? The Inquisitor (what a vile name) seems to have all the answers – curious to see what he has to say about these questions? -claudo-
    **********************************
    these questions are out of the X-files. Yes, there could be some inconceivably well organised KKKonspiracy, and if you had impeccable lab facilities, you could probably do this sort of stuff in a few days. However, if I told you about how it was done, you would have to wrap your head in tinfoil so the mindreaders can’t get into your head. If they did, the unmarked black choppers (with people in white robes) would KKKome and takkke you away :-)

    alternatively, the many pictures at the party and bank have accurate time stamps, and all the kit is in the hands of the investigating officers where they can test for tampering.

    Posted by: torquemada2

  197. Betty Friedan says:

    *******************************
    Look at the link Granny gave me at 2:14am or you ought to check out this one. Make sure to notice the cross on the site name.
    independentconservative.com/2006/05/14/duke_accuser_fresh/
    Posted by: john t at May 28, 2006 01:46 PM
    ****************************
    Now who in the hell linked that site? It wasn’t Granny.-john t May 28, 2006 09:24 PM
    ****************************
    seems like you can’t get your story straight.

    Here is another statement you made that is wrong:

    Damn near everything you posted here has been taken off that site.-john t
    ******************************
    I have posted several sites here, but I only posted the conservative site after you showed me it.

    I have to say I am amused by your logic. When it comes to facts which go your way, you just love it and it’s great. I got it wrong on the sergeant going to the rape centre (it was “officers”), and I cannot substantiate the probation thing. When it comes to using these self-same facts to look at the “AV”, oh, you don’t want to do that…

    I completely disagree with you about the intoxicated bit. The police radio call says she was drunk. The sergeant says she was unconscious, and collapsed. I think a sergeant can make a pretty good determination of when someone is out of their skull, and this is backed up by the fact that there was no commital to hospital for illness. She was taken to the drug treatment unit. There is also a substantial amount of eye-witness testimony from the people at 610. You want to ignore all that evidence.

    Just like you want to ignore the DNA tests, the pictures, the alibi evidence, the rotten lineups, dancer #2’s story, …

    Posted by: torquemada2

  198. Betty Friedan says:

    Torquemada2 – You forgot the 3rd “fact for:”

    The stripper was evaluated as beaten and full of *****.

    The nurse said that was consistent with being beaten and raped.

    What the nurse didn’t say was that was:

    A. Also consistent with being screwed and beaten by her pimp.
    B. Consistent with *** with 3 guys right before her “stripper gig” and being beaten for being behind on her drug payments. Or 3 guys and five “Johns” the drivers said she was dropped off to “service” one more more beating her before the “rape”. Fortunately for the “Johns”, they wore condoms.
    C. Consistent with falling down the stairs type inebriation and being filled with ***** from various sources Other than the Duke students, who were ruled out as a ***** source by two levels of DNA testing.

    On the “con side” don’t forget:

    (1) It is the word of 41 guys with no significant criminal history, a black taxicab driver, and the 2nd stripper – against hers.
    (2) The 20 minute gap where the students said she locked herself in the bathroom and made calls and painted her nails….plus evidence the stripper smeared pink nail polish all over the back steps, landing, and rail as she fell. The same gap where the stripper claimed the “immaculate rape occured despite witnesses saying the 2nd stripper was in the bathroom with her.

    (Yeah….yeah…OK, here’s the ticket! I was savagely raped by 3 guys who were so all over me I first thought they were 20 guys without condoms climaxing in my 3 holes…The second stripper just watched. After putting on the press-ons I had taken off for dancing, my valiant fight knocked them off, but not before I scratched White Skin! Exhausted and unable to fight back any further, I decided I would then make a cell phone call and paint my nails while being savaged…and ravished agin’ my will…Yeah, that’s the ticket!)

    (3) An apparant 12-14 years of lying as a teen, in the Navy and then criminal activity, drug abuse – plus at least one false rape accusation in her background. Slight issues of credibility, I’d say.
    (4) The IDs made appear to violate North Carolina witness ID legal procedures. Even if “pin the tail on the 3,4, or 20 lacrosse players out of a deck of 46 photos was legal, inconstistencies doom her IDs anyways.
    (5) photos at odds with her details of the rape…missing false fingernails while dancing, smiling as she left..nothing about any rape mentioned to the 2nd stripper for an hour and a half after she left the party.

    Posted by: Chris Ford

  199. Betty Friedan says:

    It is conceivable that if a person were in a choke hold from behind and being sodomized with an object, there would not be any marks on those who were doing the choke hold nor any DNA. The defense defenders talk about condoms – but the penetrating object might not have been a male organ. The Dukies also had time to scrub the bathroon with bleach. The “time stamps” could be bogus as well as the bruises on the legs (anyone with computer savvy could doctor pictures). There are a number of questions that can be asked of the defense.- claudo
    ******************************
    you know, we have had a bit of talk here about evidence; as opposed to completely unsupported speculation. The AV is on record as saying she was orally, vaginally and anally raped, that she fought hard and scratched, and that she was choked. Nothing about condoms, no choking from behind when she didn’t move, and couldn’t tell if she was being assaulted by an object. And when you are getting a **** in your mouth, by and large you can tell the difference between a ****, and an “object”.

    Yeah, sure all the evidence might have been taken by an FBI KKKonspiracy, digitally altered, and put back into cameras; presumably digitally altered bruises and cuts on the victims that the KKKonspiracists would have to know about, so that they would be consistent with those on the victim. Maybe it was the police that were conspiring, or wait- the X-files !

    This is real careful analysis of the facts :-)

    Posted by: torquemada2

  200. Betty Friedan says:

    *”I see you have a habit of disrespecting women by calling them out their name. My screenname is GrannyStandingforTruth. Got that?”

    Not when your posts are blindly ideological and determined to avoid the facts. You can term yourself whatever you want by way of an internet handle. I just point out your monniker is a joke based on your posts.

    *Granny – “I find that hard to believe, since, she was making pretty good money in her occupation. More than likely she was helping her parents. Her financial status is really none of your business, and has nothing to do with the case.”

    Her financial dealings that indicate she lies frequently on matters like tax returns, false reporting of income on welfare and health care applications for her and her two “lucky” children. Previous evidence that she is a lying ***** does indeed bear on the case, as it further undermines her credibility. And, if the money goes for malt liquor & drug abuse, that further damages the reliability of her testimony, as does her 2005 mental hospitalization for “mental anxiety and panic attacks” over being broke despite her welfare scams and err……”hard work” in her rewarding trade…..
    And yes, the strippers lying about her taxable income, her scamming to get free family health care, getting welfare checks does affect all taxpayers being milked by her…if that part of the story is true.

    *Granny – “You must be one brave soul calling a woman that you don’t know personally a ***** behind a computer screen. Why don’t you go to the trial and say that. I would love to watch you get your behind stomped on national television. Please wear a name tag, so I’ll know it’s you.”

    What are you going to do if a trial ever happens, and her prostitution work for the escort agencies is discussed by lawyers? Beat them up in court, you moron?? Spare us your stupid threats.

    *Granny defends her favorite Poverty Pimp and Racial Blackmail Artist Jesse – “Why are you and different folks worried about how Jesse Jackson spends his money? You didn’t and haven’t put a dime in his pocket;therefore, how he chooses to spend his money is really none of your BUSINESS!”

    Jesse became a multimillionaire and similarly enriched his confederates through race card shakedowns of rich Jews and corporations. Who just pass their added costs onto the American people. So how the Most Holy Rev. Jackson gets his money is all of our business.

    *Granny – “But these so-called innocent, saints shouldn’t have to follow the same legal course as others do, is that correct?”

    The Canon of legal ethics say that no prosecution should go forward if probable cause does not exist. And any prosecutor abusing his office in railroading the innocent should face censure, disbarment, even jail time. The legal system is cognizant of the harm of maliciously ensnaring the innocent without just cause to believe they are guilty because the legal system says that in order for it and it’s officers to be held immune from litigation for damages – it takes a high standard of evidence to go to trial.

    *Granny – “How condescending of you to mention, “where Dukies” are regularly bashed by townies.” Could it be caused by the racist acts towards the “townies” as you call them?”

    No, just stating fact. But Durham’s underclass is resentful of anyone, and some in it’s ranks will kill or rape blacks as fast as they would whites or Duke students if given an opportunity. In fact, the people in Durham that really have the most cause to be in a seething rage are the parents of 5 black college students/college grads, no serious crimes between them – 4 of whom were murdered and the survivor who had an eye blown out by a .45 as he flinched during the execution shots of the two black intruders. It seems that the police are still waiting on “resources” to allow the DNA evidence from the quadruple murder last November to be tested. And when the Victim families heard about the special treatment of the stripper case – over a 200 DNA tests of lacrosse players, the bathroom, and the stripper done in under 3 weeks, they went bullshit and began talking to the media. Went even more bullshit when “more resources” were found for doing all the stripper DNA tests all over again through an expensive private lab after Nifong rolled snake eyes at the state lab, and from discovering that the murder investigation stopped so those cops could join the “rape team”.

    If the ***** was lying her *** off, as the details seem to suggest, her lies not only harmed the Duke players, but also severely harmed the feelings and trust of the black victims of the November muders and maimings by sucking up resources from a real major crime.

    http://www.newsobserver.com/145/story/444574.html

    *Granny – “Granny giving major eye rollage and looking down at you!”

    As if anyone cares what eye rolls and “looking down” a partisan gutter dweller like you gives them.

    *Granny – “I find this remark very hyprocritical, since you and your friends have been slinging her name and personal information around on different blogs, since day one.”(Granny on my suggestion that her name and pictures be released if she or Nifong admit she made the whole rape accusation up.)

    I have not “slung her name around”. I know what it is, but have never reposted it. I believe it should not be revealed, nor photos, until it is confirmed she is a liar – as well as a ***** (the facts confirm that). But then, all rape shield laws and MSM agreement to be silent should fall by the wayside and her name, face, and whole life story be out in public to facilitate a reexamination of campus PC, feminist rape politics, athlete bashing by feminists, (the media is sitting on a ton of dirt about this POS’s 1st false rape accusation, other behavior in the Navy contributing to her being discarded, drug abuse tales, former pimp, a possible blackmail/extortion scheme with a John being threatened with a rape accusation unless he paid more money.)

    Posted by: Chris Ford

  201. Betty Friedan says:

    Whitey writes: “Jelly- we’ll start praising the Navy service of the AV the precise moment we praise the Marine (branch of the Navy) career of Lee Harvey Oswald.”

    In fairness to Lee Harvey Oswald, at least he did service, got an honorable discharge (downgraded to the lower “General Discharge” the stripper got – after he showed up in the Soviet Union and tried renouncing his citizenship) and was a bona fide Vet (3 years), not a discarded liability like the Accuser. She lasted a little over a year on an eight-year Naval hitch she signed up for.
    ==============================
    Justice58, I doubt they will go to trial.

    Right now, the defense lawyers are finishing up their review of the prosecution evidence dossiers and tying up gaps in discovery with court petitions for more disclosure to explain the baffling gaps in Accuser’s ID’s over 3 days, determine which ID and rape exam rules were flouted, the deal to drop 2nd stripper violations if she would be silent. They want to know why there was no toxicology test done.

    Then comes the big request.

    Which will be for judicial review of the Grand Jury transcripts to see if the DA and cops and SANE nurse testimony reveals deliberate lies and omissions in the quest to get indictments. Defense may ask for a 3 judge panel to review what Nifong, rookie investigator Benjamin Niman, the SANE nurse said to the Grand Jury – if known exculpating evidence, or evidence casting reasonable doubt was hidden from the Grand Jury – and if they perjured themselves and grounds for court-ordered case dismissal, personnel dismissal, and professional reprimands exists.

    Did they go to the Grand Jury knowing no toxicology testing was done, but imply a date rape drug was used and would be proven? Did they say condoms were used to explain lack of any DNA from the lacrosse players while knowing the accuser said the “rapists” used no condoms and came in and on her?? The fact that formal police ID procedures were not followed?

    Nifong is now experiencing the “big fish in a small pond syndrome”. Fine until the predators know you are there waiting in that nice small pond. Now the national media, State of North Carolina, legal sharpshooters, powerful Duke alumni all sense a railroading and “hick justice” is underway – and want to grab and pot the big fish. Along with his remora fish..

    Any defenders he counted on are peeling away, sensing Nifong has latched onto a POS worse than Tawana Brawley, and has engaged in major legal misconduct as a DA. The premiere feminist and black gender and race card players are giving this a wide berth after their initial rallying back in March.

    No Justice58, there will be no trial. Unless you mean trial for Nifong, Liman, Gottlieb, and the accuser. And national attention on the excesses of campus PC, feminist rape politics, rape shield laws once all the evidence has shaken out.

    Posted by: Chris Ford

  202. Betty Friedan says:

    I almost forget to mention that everyone’s favorite advocacy group for the AV, the NBPP’s website has been down all week ’cause they can’t afford the bandwidth to keep it up. Now if they would go ahead and hock their guns maybe they could keep their website up.

    cheers!

    Posted by: Whitey

  203. Betty Friedan says:

    Claudo,

    So what is your point about indigent legal representation in NC? Nothing good can be said about it because Joe Chesire was involved in starting it? a number of the indigent lawyers in my county also happen to be minorities so to some degree it has turned out to be a boon for them. Is that a problem? Also when I went to grad school many years the gals pursuing MSW were fun to have a beer with on Thursday night. You seem a little uptight to me…

    Jelly- we’ll start praising the Navy service of the AV the precise moment we praise the Marine (branch of the Navy) career of Lee Harvey Oswald.

    Wok- 75% of Americans would rather live here than anywhere else in the world. So called liberal countries like Germany have something like a 25% approval rating. If rich white people or any other group of people you don’t like are making living here in the great ol’ USA such a problem for you I’m sure some of my Chinese colleagues would be happy to swap places with you in a heartbeat.

    The bottom line is the lax “assault” case will remain a constant news item until the sooner of the AV confirming this whole matter was a hoax or until the trial occurs. Too bad if you were expecting it to go away sooner.

    In terms of the Enron trial, I’m not unhappy with the convictions. It doesn’t stir the public because we don’t feel like these are people we know personally and complex business cases are too complicated for the public to absorb.

    Posted by: Whitey

  204. Betty Friedan says:

    Thank you, Michelle. I knew that “Betty’s” writing style was familiar – along with the absolute, vile hatred of women. Goob once bragged that he makes so much money that he can retire at 50 – Honda dealership?! The “feminist” moniker is just a, not so clever, way to make us think he’s a woman; but, his total ignorance of what the real Betty Friedan espoused and the virulent hatred of the alleged rape victim (despite being a “trauma nurse”) was a dead giveaway that Goob/You Know I’m Right/Betty was neither woman nor feminist. The attempt to show that s/he is a minority was also very weak. Goob/”Betty” also despises Dude, John T, and I and the hatred did seem to ooze out in the postings. Bye-bye Betty. Did you google JD, yet?

    Posted by: claudo

    LOL! Very colorful claudo. You should write children’s books. LOL!

  205. Betty Friedan says:

    JohnT(wat) sez – “Seems like another bigot has joined the trio.Now we have a foresome.”

    Oooooooooo! The PC card gets played by John T!!

    I am sooooooo intimidated!!

    Typical behavior of his ilk. No substance, just 70s chants of “racism” “Sexism” “White boy privilege!” “Homophobia! Islamophobia!!” – as if labels triumph over lack of rebuttal of facts. Dispute my facts if you can. You are clueless on my ideology. Suffice it to say I have had more arguments in my circles about my belief that the Duke accuser is a lying ***** than my belief that Kobe’s accuser was a lying **** out for money. Or that Desriree Washington was truthful…

    =============================

    Justice58 – “LISTEN TO MY WORDS… THE ACCUSED WILL BE TRIED IN A COURT OF LAW AND A JURY WILL DECIDE THEIR FATE.”

    No they won’t. If they are innocent and being currently punished by 400K bail bonds, names slimed in the media, banned from school, travel, employability — and thousands in unreimbursable legal costs every month even if the Magical “Jury Knows Best” logic actually was true…the last thing an innocent person is to want all that bleeding to continue for another year before they put their fate in the crapshoot hands of a racially polarized jury in a racially polarized town that dislikes “outsiders” to boot.

    Fortunately for the 3 accused, they are watching the lies of the accuser and Nifong being shredded further every day and likely will never have to risk their lives on how 12 on a split Southern Jury “feel” about their Yankee butts.

    Leaving what is now widely considered – a case that echoes the Scottsboro Boys – in a resolution path….of repercussions on who were the actual victimizers. Shall the stripper’s name and photos be published nationwide if she turns out to have lied so maliciously? I say yes, as that would mean she, as the victimizer, faces severe repercussions as scum. Some of the photos so far concealed under rape shield laws directly expose her as a liar, and her name and primary profession are well known ouside what the MSM dares write.

    And if she lied and Nifong used “Duke outsiders” to Durham as his patsies to advance politically, the State and the NC Bar should end his legal career as a disgrace to the profession.

    Posted by: Chris Ford

  206. Betty Friedan says:

    suspected rapists who may have drugged, assaulted, and raped a person of color,…-wokedude
    *********************
    well, woke dude, I am sorry to spoil your fantasy about date rape drugs.

    We know that the DA has given his full dossier of evidence to the defence. He has publically stated so, and affirmed this in court. The defence have publically stated that there are no tox reports. The DA cannot present evidence that he does not disclose to the defence.

    You therefore now know that there is no evidence of a date rape drug in the “AV”’s system, because the DA would have had to present it.

    Although hysteria about date rape drugs is high, actual instances are few and far between. Here is a clear example:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4179037.stm
    Oh, and what a surprise; a woman using poison to rob men.
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1037699,00.html
    T2

    Posted by: torquemada2

  207. Betty Friedan says:

    Stav506 – “The point is to show how FOX News does not really cover news that actually pertains to the public. This Duke case is strictly a fluff piece about rich white boys that are trying to get out of trouble.”

    No, it’s not fluff as it has resonated across many campuses, cancelled the season of the top-rated NCAA Team. And your bias is noted. When have your ilk ever gone after accused “poor black boys” trying to get off the hook. Indeed, I could likely see your identity politics-riddled brain snapping back “How-Dare-You say the Prohibited Phrase “Black Boys!!”. In truth, I don’t use “black boys” in my vernacular but I will call out anyone that thinks “white boys” is an acceptable derisive term.

    DaveJ – “I said it before, the evidence is looking a little thin, but shouldn’t a court decide this?
    We haven’t seen the evidence. I’m sure NiFong has asked the AV if she really had a case as he doesn’t want her (and along with her, his credibility) shredded on a witness stand.”

    If you were innocent, DaveJ, the last thing you’d want to do is remain ensnarled in a legal system that bleeds you of thousands of dollars a month, bars you from attending college or travel without permission, all so you can have the “treat” after a year of letting the “System slowly work”, of being judged by a biracial panel of your peers in a racially polarized town where “Dukies” are regularly bashed by townies.
    No, what you would be doing is screaming and doing whatever you could to extricate yourself from any legal system that has ensnared the innocent…. As for the “we haven’t seen all the evidence, surely no indictment could occur or the nice DA wouldn’t pursue a case for political gain without evidence….there is no evidence other than the word of a criminal *****, and the word of a nurse that one way a ***** could have been filled full of ***** and beaten is by rape.

    Jelly – “And to treat a navy veteran with such brazen disrespect marks a fresh low for our justice system…….That our veterans should have to strip to attend college and feed their kids is fully descriptive of Bush’s America.”

    Woman was tossed from the Navy with a less-than-honorable “General Discharge” after only 1 year in for becoming pregnant through adultery with a married sailor on her ship, and factoring previous military misconduct. By law, she isn’t a Veteran, but a discard of the sort the military routinely rejects for misbehavior or “not cutting it” from Basic to 1st Duty Station. The acuser is not eligable for any Vet benefits or VA status. And Veterans with skills do not have to live off welfare fraud, money from stripping, blowjobs, and *** with 7-8 men a week in “Bush’s America”. But lying, lazy whores do.

    And this ***** with kids apparantly leeches off her parents for support and housing, and the welfare system as a “full time student-single mother”, supposedly attends college for free as a single mom on welfare (Jesse Jackson rest easy. Your multimillions won on race card poker are safe! – Your Black Princess Scholarship is unneeded!) And yet, despite all that and the tax-free dollars she gets from 3 years of “hard work” stripping and doing *** for money, she still apparantly had “a secret expense” that left her so broke that it required two weeks of committment to a mental hospital on “nervousness and anxiety disorder”.

    Though being a ***** and a single mom does have perks. If a man of any race had gotten drunk twice the legal limit, stole a car, and tried to kill the arresting officer with it back in 2002, they would still be a felon in jail today. Only pity as a single mommy or liberal knobbers given to lawyers kept our false accuser from jail and a felon rap sheet..

    Posted by: Chris Ford

  208. Betty Friedan says:

    Claudo says – Ah “Betty” the “feminist” – former rape crisis now trauma center “nurse.” Also a “minority” (but we don’t know which one) – were you the African American woman (Pamela), on another posting, who “grew up in the hood” (don’t know which hood) who was railing on (as you have) about all those innocent men who “have been convicted wrongly by lying whores.” Seems rather convenient that both you and Pamela speak with the same phrases and are “minorities” speaking out against their fellow African American. Sorry, “Betty,” you have no “creds” – street or otherwise. You missed your calling – rather than a “trauma” nurse who wouldn’t waste time working at a rape crisis center, you should have been a lawyer …

    Pamela seems like a very intelligent woman. Just because people like me grew up poor and disadvantage, doesn’t mean we all have blind hate with those who didn’t. Instead of blaming those who had more than I. I worked hard to get a college education, career, and family. Now because of the decisions I’ve made, I enjoy a good life, and it’s primarily because I didn’t spend all my time hating other people for what they had, and worked to get what I needed to succeed. People “minorities” should be held accountable for the decisions they make.

    For example: You say I should have been a lawyer. Most of my teachers in high school and guidance councilors told me the same thing, but I decided that I could make just as much being a nurse. Nurses can go to school for only two years and make over $100,000.00, and they’re many scholarships offered to low income students who promise to work in two years. If they (nurses) decide to go back to school, the medical institution pays tuition and costs, so tuition and student fees are free, and all school supplies i.e. from related books to computers are tax deductible. So unlike lawyers, I never had a school loan to pay off. I also considered becoming an accountant, but they make less than nurses, but have school loans as big as lawyers. So I’m happy for the decision I made. I’m responsible for the decisions I make, and I make only responsible decisions; thus my life reflect it.

    If people like “woke dude” spend less time blaming whites for what they worked for and started making changes in his own life, than maybe he wouldn’t be so angry all the time. You “claudo” appear to have a lot of issues.

    Claudo says – or do you also have a JD?

    * I don’t know what a JD is, but I have a BMW SUV, and my husband drives an Acura MDX, Our family car is a Honda Odyssey, and my eldest son (17 years) drives a Honda S2000 (My husband is part owner of two Acura/Honda Dealerships).

  209. Betty Friedan says:

    The accuser’s story changes again–
    http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=local&id=4208878
    “She was wearing a see-through red outfit,
    ( Is this what she was wearing when she left the house?)
    with no undergarments and one high-heel shoe”. . .
    Shelton says he got an ammonia capsule from his patrol car.
    “When I used it, the female began mouth-breathing, which is a sign that she was not really unconscious,” he wrote. . .
    (snip)
    Shelton says the woman would not speak with police officers, so they decided to take her for involuntary commitment at the Durham Access Center. . .
    “He called me and stated the female stated she had been raped
    “She said some of the guys from the party pulled her from the vehicle and groped her. She told me that no one forced her to have ***.”
    “. . . Within a few minutes, I was told that she told the [doctor] that she had been raped. I returned and asked her if she had or had not been raped. She told me she did not want to talk to me anymore and then started crying and saying something about them dragging her into the bedroom.”
    (not to mention the twenty white men, reduced to four, then reduced to three; then the broom, the rape coats, the condoms or no condoms, etc.)
    Comment by Seahawk — 05.27.06 @ 8:54 am

  210. Betty Friedan says:

    Now that the tables have turned, and holes have been poked all through this case and the accusers’ story, you guys get upset and wonder why people could ever defend an evil white male. Take race out of this, and LOOK AT THE EVIDENCE!!!

    If you people would stop being jelous and racist of other people then we wouldn’t have these problems. However, since you are… I smell another Tawana Brawley coming on. I can’t wait until 2007.

    Posted by: Jeston George at May 26, 2006 01:45 PM

  211. Betty Friedan says:

    As I have said already, Nifong is running scared. If he had anything big, he’d spill it. His desperation was obvious when he held that conference at the NCC University where he thought he was in friendly territory.

    Nifong claims the boys are “stone walling”, but when the accusation was made, the police questioned the three boys who lived in the house for over six hours, not one asked for a lawyer. When the entire team was told they had to submit DNA samples, they didn’t call their parents or fight the warrant.

    The boys cooperated completely. These aren’t the actions of guilty boys. Only when their parents witnessed the circus-like atmosphere created by District Attorney Mike Nifong, the boys were advised to remain quiet.

    Nifong nationally proclaimed that he will indict the entire team for aiding and abetting. He doesn’t care whether anyone is innocent or guilty, or if he has to bulldoze over 50 boys to get to one. Nifong portrayed all of these boys as rapists while claiming that they’re hiding information because the only information they have is that the rape never occurred, and DNA evidence supports the boys’ story, and the second stripper coincides with the boys account of events, but it doesn’t matter.

    Because of Nifong, these boys have already been convicted in the media. Their reputations destroyed as their names and pictures are widely distributed with hate slogans labeling them as rapist.

    Nifong will get an indictment to avoid facing the racial tensions he stoked to near riot levels, then he will leave this “powder keg” to the next elected DA to handle the fallout, and when this case presents itself to be unfounded and accusations of “white privilege” force racial tensions to explode, I predict Mr. Nifong will be somewhere far far away on vacation.

    Stripper claims: three men raped her on the bathroom rug,
    Fact:
    • No vaginal or seminal fluid, no skin, blood, or hair were found anywhere in the bathroom, bath towels, bath rug, door handle, bathroom floor, basin, water faucet handle, etc.
    • A man cannot take off a condom and not get DNA from himself or the female on his hands and not transfer it to everything he touches?
    • Accuser claims she was vaginally penetrated; accuser claims she was panicked and thought she was going to die; Where is her vaginal fluid, urine, or blood anywhere in the bathroom? Does her body defy basic physiology capable of keeping any ejaculate from spilling out?
    • Accuser claims she was anally penetrated; Where’s her fecal material or scat smears in the bathroom? Does the accuser have inhuman anal sphinter control that prevented any of the ejaculate from dripping out?
    • Accuser claims she was orally sodomized; where is DNA from her saliva and tears? Did she lick up every drop and swallowed any evidence?

    Stripper claim bruises were result of an attack from three boys:
    Fact: Time-stamped photos prove stripper arrived bruised and cut while drunk.

    Nifong stated that a condom was used, if this is true than where is the spermicidal lubricant evidence? Where are the condoms? Where are the condom wrappers? Where is the empty condom box?

    If no DNA material were present on the stripper, than why were DNA samples taken? The District Attorney vigorously claimed that these DNA evidence will clear the innocent.

    When we think of a single mother, we picture a woman struggling to support herself and her children. Laura Grissim [Letters; April 14] plays on this stereotype to portray the Durham rape accuser/stripper as a stereotypical working single mom.

    It’s amazing how just by claiming a person to be a “mother” puts a “halo” on her head. Feminist claim that some women have no other option to provide for herself and her children which paints a picture of a selfless martyr, but this is misleading especially regarding this particular “single mom”. This single mom and her children live with their grandfather so the threat of being homeless or hungry is unlikely. This single mom has been arrested in for larceny and evading police, which doesn’t fit the mold of “martyr”. This single mom arrived at the party inebriated and was found drunk and disorderly in a parking lot, but looking at this woman as an individual instead of a sexist stereotype reveals a more realistic picture of this single mom which dims her halo.

    Feminist go on to rants that criticizing this woman “hinges on blaming the victim”. This single mom is not a victim. This single mom is an accuser. There’s enough evidence to question her integrity and whether a crime actually occurred. I find it hypocritical that feminist so easily give this “single mom” the benefit of the doubt while condemning a group of boys who happen to be on a sports team. People should avoid stereotypes and focus on each individual, including the “accuser”, as a person.

    The actions of District Attorney Mike Nifong have been reckless and irresponsible in playing out this case before the national media. This has inflamed racial stereotypes throughout Durham which makes it more important that everyone take a step back and let the police do their job. If this woman lied; thus exposing Nifong as a fool, then she should be prosecuted for this crime, which have destroyed these young boys’ lives and reputations. Being a “single mom” shouldn’t be an excuse to condone being so reckless and destructive.

    Apparently the “second stripper charged with embezzling $25,000” changed her story to conspire with the “lying stripper under probation for larceny and trying to kill a police officer with a stolen car” as part of a deal with Nifong to get released from jail, also contacted a public relations firm to “not let this opportunity pas her by and to spin it to my advantage”.

    This in the wake of pictures surfacing showing that the “lying stripper” had those fake finger nails missing before the time she lied that a rape occurred.

    With the taste of his own foot still lingering in his mouth, District Attorney Mike Nifong has another piece of evidence blow up in his face, I wonder how’s his ulcer is doing?

    So would it be his own aura or is it the universe’s way of getting back at Nifong for destroying these young boys lives?

    It would be funny if Nifong’s ulcer leads to a colonoscopy, or would it be “ironic” or “poetic justice” that he screws 47 boys over a false rape claim and have to take a 36 inch colonoscopy tube up his @ss for his part in the fiasco he created.

    Lets not forget that not only that there lacks any DNA evidence of the boys, but there’s an absolute absence of DNA from her who claims she was raped vaginally, anally, and orally… why wasn’t any of HER vaginal, urine, blood, sweat, fecal, saliva, or tears not found anywhere in the bathroom? Nifong claims that condoms could have been used, then where are the condoms? The condom wrappers, the condom box, the spermicidal evidence from the rape kit?

    Some feminist claim the boys were drunk and where so overwhelmed with excitement that they couldn’t ejaculate- not even one, obviously these women have never had *** with a 19 year old male or any male.

    Finally, don’t forget the three boys who lived in the house agreed to be questioned by the police for over six hours, and volunteered to a lie detector test. When the boys were told to surrender DNA samples, none called their parents r tried to block the order, they complied because they new the “stripper with the criminal record” was lying. These are not the actions of guilty boys, but Nifong claimed that they were all covering up for each other and will charge each of them with aiding and abetting because the only information they had is that no rape occurred.

    These boys were and continue to be put through hell by these criminal strippers and an unscrupulous DA. Hopefully these three will be held accountable for the racial riots pending the acquittal of these innocent boys.

    Posted by: Jeston George at May 26, 2006 05:14 PM

  212. Betty Friedan says:

    Claudo says – … hospitals do not share medical information with law enforcement unless there is a court order or a signed consent form from the patient. This nonsense about discerning whether the victim is telling the truth and relating it to the police is absolute **** – if she is doing this, she could (and should) be sued!

    * Go ahead and report me idiot, and what do you think we do with the rape reports? We can’t give them to the patients – the reports on the patient, but it doesn’t belong to the patient. I suppse you think we don’t give DUI reports to the police either.

    Michelle says – “When Betty Friedan took the microphone to pledge her support for the ******* rights motion, women cheered, some cried, and all around the venue, thousands of lavender balloons rose from the floor, drifting triumphantly towards the ceiling. Despite opposition from the right, the motion was overwhelmingly passed. This was a defining moment for the US Women’s Movement, for ******* rights, and for Betty Friedan.”

    * Lucky for lesbians everywhere!

    Claudo says = “Just a stripper” – expendable, a disposable item. To these members of the privileged class, she’s a non-entity – like their gardener or maid. To them she’s not worthy of any consideration at all as she’s just there to meet their needs and it’s all about gratification. In the land of the cotton plantations, not much has changed.

    • there you go twisting things around again. You need a life!

    Karllie says – Just because a woman has the seed of 2 to 3 different men in her orifices doesn’t mean she’s a prostitute.

    * I agree! Many girls like to have *** with multiple partners and they don’t charge.

    Jelly says – Lets just hope we never find ourselves wearing shoes similar to that of this victim.
    Posted by: Jelly

    * It’ll never happen, I would never make a false accusation of rape.

    Scarlet
    The Duke Lacrosse story has been around for weeks, Lay and Skilling were just found guilty yesterday! Do you know how many thousands of lives these two ‘boys’ ruined?
    Maybe because they are corporate big wigs the Repubs automatically don’t want to talk about them – well too damn bad – I can’t wait to see them in handcuffs in September. I hope they have a lovely summer.

    • what does this have to do with the false accusation of rape?

    woke dude you have some serious racial issues. Are you a member of the NBPP?

    Copy Of Defense Motion (PDF file)

    During one lineup done three weeks after the alleged assault, the dancer identified Evans with 90 percent certainty, saying the picture of the man was her attacker if he had a mustache.

    However, Evans’ attorneys say there was a second photo lineup done just eight days after the woman says she was raped. In that lineup, attorneys say Evans was not chosen at all.

    The motions also talk about information from the first officer to see the dancer. The motions say the officer had to use an ammonia capsule to rouse the unconscious woman.

    The police report also says the alleged victim first reported that she was groped but not raped, but later changed her story and was taken to the hospital.

    http://www.wral.com/news/9282720/detail.html

    Posted by: Ranger Bob

    * Good post, but people here, especially the thinks-she-knows-it-all Claudo and the Racist woke dude aren’t interested in evidence, They just like jumping around and screaming like monkeys. They’re quite fun to watch. I throw Claudo peanuts frequently to make her perform. She’s very preditable.

    justice58 says – TO everyone…. “betty friedan” is a liar, first she said ” I work at a rape crisis center” then a trauma center… hell, she don’t even work, she watches fox news all day and suck in all their lies. Wow betty! YOU ARE SO GULLIBLE!!!

    • justice58, I was wondering when you were going to show up. You’re usually not very far from spreading your hate propaganda. I guess the loony bin was too full, or did you escape? Got a life yet? Thought so. You’re such a loser. That’s what happens when you spend all your time hating men. Now men don’t want anything to do with you, and you’re all alone with only yourself to keep you company, and it can’t be very good company. Look at you. So pathetic.
    • As usual you don’t read things before you “fly off the handle”.

    Anonymous says – Excuse me officer, I have been raped. But could I please have the evidence back. Oh, I am sorry. That was stupid to ask for evidence that may convict my rapists. I must still be suffering from the date rape drug. (disclaimer, I don’t know what happened in the house)

    Comment by UNK — 05.27.06 @ 2:19 am
    * I would be very suspicious if a woman walked into the ED and calmly said she asked her rapists for evidence that could convict them, and they gave her ….

    (disclaimer, I don’t know what happened in the house, but all evidence thus far suggests that she lied about a rape occurring)

  213. Betty Friedan says:

    Good point:

    The only reason this case is continuing is because the AV won’t get any money and may possibly be charged with making a false claim if she walks away.

    You have to look at the character of the folks standing up on behalf of the wrongly accused Durham 3. First a tip of the hat to that great American Hannity, but also Joe Chesire stands out.

    Joe Chesire has been a tireless advocate of the downtrodden and those caught up in the “system” particularly when it has run amuck.

    Most importantly, he served on the Legislative study commission that established the Indigent Defense Commission to oversee all indigent defenses throughout the state of North Carolina. This agency oversees an 80 million dollar plus budget and is responsible for the quality of representation of criminal law for indigents in our state.

    the reason this case is a continuing news story is because it represents a travesty of justice.

    and Wok I would have no problem in my daughter dating some members of the lacrosse team; I don’t think the famous email writer and Finnerty would necessarily be her type though.

    Posted by: Whitey at May 26, 2006 06:23 PM

  214. Betty Friedan says:

    Wow! A lot has happened since I was last here. I see the monkeys (Claudo, John T, are still screaming and jumping around

    T2 says – well said Betty ! It is amazing how few people actually want to talk about the known facts of the case that Betty raises.

    As is clear to all, a court has 12 members of the public (like you and I), who get to hear the evidence and decide. Substantial parts of that evidence are now publically available through court depositions.

    We now know that
    1) the “AV” was seriously intoxicated, and has changed her mind on the rape claim, who and what raped her, etc.
    2) the DA hasn’t provided any tox tests to the defence; I wonder why that is ? Maybe he is hiding the presence of a date rape drug, and isn’t going to use this in the trial as part of a KKKonspiracy ? Alternatively, the tox shows that the “AV” was drunk, self-administered, and this will ruin his case ?
    3) the “AV” claimed no condoms in her account of the multiple rape and sodomy; yet samples taken in the rape centre don’t find any DNA/ broomstick ends/ spermicide from condoms.
    4) We now know that there were two identity parades, and the “AV” couldn’t identify members of the Duke team till she had an ID parade consisting only of members of the team !
    5) the “AV” has identified one of the rapists, who has a cast-iron alibi, with independent witnesses, atm receipts, etc.
    6) the “AV” has a criminal record
    7) the other stripper had a pending prosecution, and made several statements contradicing the “AV”. There are several other reasons for doubting anything she says.

    We also know that there all the people at the party who are able to testify that there was no rape. The counter argument that runs at this board is that because these people are rich and white, they must have done it and they are all liars.

    So far, it is one versus forty, and all the physical evidence counts against the one.
    go, betty, go.
    T2

    * Thanks T2! I try to introduce reason and common sense where every it’s lacking.

    DaveJ – “I said it before, the evidence is looking a little thin, but shouldn’t a court decide this?

    * the evidence is dissipating as we speak. At this rate, there’s not going to be any evidence left before the trial begins.

    Jelly – “And to treat a navy veteran with such brazen disrespect marks a fresh low for our justice system…….That our veterans should have to strip to attend college and feed their kids is fully descriptive of Bush’s America.”

    Woman was tossed from the Navy with a less-than-honorable “General Discharge” after only 1 year in for becoming pregnant through adultery with a married sailor on her ship, and factoring previous military misconduct. By law, she isn’t a Veteran, but a discard of the sort the military routinely rejects for misbehavior or “not cutting it” from Basic to 1st Duty Station. The acuser is not eligable for any Vet benefits or VA status. And Veterans with skills do not have to live off welfare fraud, money from stripping, blowjobs, and *** with 7-8 men a week in “Bush’s America”. But lying, lazy whores do.

    * That would explain why she couldn’t get military assistance for college.

    And this ***** with kids apparantly leeches off her parents for support and housing, and the welfare system as a “full time student-single mother”, supposedly attends college for free as a single mom on welfare (Jesse Jackson rest easy. Your multimillions won on race card poker are safe! – Your Black Princess Scholarship is unneeded!) And yet, despite all that and the tax-free dollars she gets from 3 years of “hard work” stripping and doing *** for money, she still apparantly had “a secret expense” that left her so broke that it required two weeks of committment to a mental hospital on “nervousness and anxiety disorder”.

    Though being a ***** and a single mom does have perks. If a man of any race had gotten drunk twice the legal limit, stole a car, and tried to kill the arresting officer with it back in 2002, they would still be a felon in jail today. Only pity as a single mommy or liberal knobbers given to lawyers kept our false accuser from jail and a felon rap sheet..

    * Wow! And I thought I was tough! Awesome post Chris!

    torquemada2 says – When defence lawyers speak in public, and make categorical statements of fact, they are either being truthful, or lying.

    The defence lawyers have stated that the vaginal, anal and other swabs have found no DNA evidence from any of the LAX players. Is that a lie ? ‘cos it sure goes a long way to casting doubt on a story of a forcible gang-bang.

    There are court papers, publically available, which contain the transcript of the police officer which found the “AV”. According to this, she was intoxicated, and changed her story.

    The transcript of the second ID parade is publically available, and the defence lawyers have made clear the factual nature of the evidence that provides one of the players with a cast-iron, multiple-source alibi. Is that a lie ?

    Yeah, sure you don’t want to even think of what the evidence is. Would that spoil your fantasy of racist white rapists ?

    • another awesome post! This makes a lot of sense!

    john t says: Maybe you should go back and read the comments. Most people on here are in agreement to let the experts take care of it and if it does go to court let a jury decide. Most aren’t claiming who’s guilty and who is innocent.

    That’s something that you, Betty and Jeston can’t get through your heads. You are the only ones on here that are claiming innocence for one side. You are the ones claiming to be experts about something you don’t know any more about than the rest of us.

    • This is a case of “the pot calling the kettle black.” John *sigh* It’s obvious that are intelligence intimidates you. Don’t feel bad. Most ignorant people would feel how you feel. We’re not claiming to be “experts”. It’s just that with an educational back ground, and experience in responsible rational thinking, we are capable of analyzing situations than those with minds filled with ignorance and bigotry.

    Claudo says – “Betty” is absolutely brilliant.

    • Thanks claudo. I would be blushing if you’re opinion was worth anything.

    john t says – Seems like another bigot has joined the trio. Now we have a foresome.

    • seems like anyone who disagrees with john t is a bigot. Maybe someone should get john t dictionary so he can learn what that word means.

    justice58 says – “Betty”….. You need serious help because you’re delusional.

    • sweetheart. If this helps you accept your own failures, than think what ever you need to think, but to me, you’ll always be my favorite little monkey. *kisses*

    T2 says – well, woke dude, I am sorry to spoil your fantasy about date rape drugs.

    We know that the DA has given his full dossier of evidence to the defence. He has publically stated so, and affirmed this in court. The defence have publically stated that there are no tox reports. The DA cannot present evidence that he does not disclose to the defence.

    You therefore now know that there is no evidence of a date rape drug in the “AV”’s system, because the DA would have had to present it.

    Although hysteria about date rape drugs is high, actual instances are few and far between. Here is a clear example:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4179037.stm
    Oh, and what a surprise; a woman using poison to rob men.
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1037699,00.html
    T2

    • I would have to agree with T2 on this. Woke dude you need to wake up and focus on the facts.

    T2 says to john t – bigots have beliefs, independent of the facts.

    • This is true john. You have to let go of your bigotry and look at the facts. The boys are innocent and the black stripper lied.

    john t says – Why didn’t you put the part of my post about not saying who’s guilty and who’s not.

    • The stripper and Mike Nifong is guilty of making false claims of rape and aiding and abetting malicious prosecution of innocent boys.

    Justice58 – “LISTEN TO MY WORDS… THE ACCUSED WILL BE TRIED IN A COURT OF LAW AND A JURY WILL DECIDE THEIR FATE.”

    Chris Ford says to justice58 – No they won’t. If they are innocent and being currently punished by 400K bail bonds, names slimed in the media, banned from school, travel, employability — and thousands in unreimbursable legal costs every month even if the Magical “Jury Knows Best” logic actually was true…the last thing an innocent person is to want all that bleeding to continue for another year before they put their fate in the crapshoot hands of a racially polarized jury in a racially polarized town that dislikes “outsiders” to boot.

    Fortunately for the 3 accused, they are watching the lies of the accuser and Nifong being shredded further every day and likely will never have to risk their lives on how 12 on a split Southern Jury “feel” about their Yankee butts.

    Leaving what is now widely considered – a case that echoes the Scottsboro Boys – in a resolution path….of repercussions on who were the actual victimizers. Shall the stripper’s name and photos be published nationwide if she turns out to have lied so maliciously? I say yes, as that would mean she, as the victimizer, faces severe repercussions as scum. Some of the photos so far concealed under rape shield laws directly expose her as a liar, and her name and primary profession are well known ouside what the MSM dares write.

    And if she lied and Nifong used “Duke outsiders” to Durham as his patsies to advance politically, the State and the NC Bar should end his legal career as a disgrace to the profession.

    • Nicely put. Justice58 I hope you are capable of appreciating Chris Ford correcting your fasle assumption, and I hope you’ll be a little more responsible when you post comments.

    john t says – bigot n : a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own.

    • I agree. This defines you (john t) to a “t”.

    Michelle says – To claudo and justice58… don’t worry, you’re still my favorite monkeys. come get the peanut! This is the exact phrase GOOB used with me once. When I disproved his point without responding to the name calling, he(?) apologized and said, “I told you I was just throwing peanuts at the monkeys.” Hmmmm…..

    * I can easily recognize monkeys, but I don’t mean it as an insult. You see. Monkeys love to scream, shout and make a lot of noise, but don’t make any sense except to other monkeys. That describes claudo, justice58, john t, and you michelle. I thought it was a nice way to refer to your actions. I’m sorry if I offended you. But I would have to say that this is your most calm response. Maybe you’re evolving?

    Claudo says – Did you google JD, yet?

    * nope. I really don’t spend that much time thinking about anything you say. Your opinion isn’t worth that much effort.

    Whitey says – I almost forget to mention that everyone’s favorite advocacy group for the AV, the NBPP’s website has been down all week ’cause they can’t afford the bandwidth to keep it up. Now if they would go ahead and hock their guns maybe they could keep their website up.

    cheers!

    * LOL!

    JayMayandJoseph says – And thank YOU Betty for your rapier-like wit:

    • Your very welcome. I’m glad you were able to catch it.

    JayMayandJoseph says – JayMay = 1
    Betty = 33

    • OMG! You actually counted. I’m flattered you took the time.

    john t says to RB – BTW, your whole brain is behind your back. It’s in your ***.

    GrannyStandingforTruth says – It’s a pretty popular topic on your Web Site too, Anonymous. How are you coming along with your campaign against Nifong? I am amazed a racist of your calibur making rounds to visit us old minorities. Dang, you’ve, definitely, visited all of them, too. I think it’s great that your adding a little cultural diversity under your belt. I’ll admit that I’ve noticed your choice of words towards minorities is changing somewhat. I mean you’ve went from using the “N” word to using minorities, and that’s a great improvement on your part, seeing how strong of views you hold towards them.

    Smh@Betty! You and your little monkey comment, smh. You must feel really brave sitting behind a computer screen making a little sly racial slur. I see you’ve been making your rounds in blog world ,too, and trying to convince people to believe one-sided evidence, while campaigning to oust Nifong. Your a real busy-body!

    Oh, lookie here, you’ve brought some of your friends with you to post on Newshound’s blog. Waving my hand at Chris, UNG, Seahawk,and Anonymous. Did I miss anybody, Betty? Hmmm…I don’t see Kemperman, Steve, Tator, and the rest of your creme de la crop. Have you guys finished working out your strategy to get Nifong ousted from office, so you can replace him with a Republican? You guys still going around tampering with juries? How’s the weather in Durham?

    Welp, I wouldn’t count my chickens before they hatch if I were you guys. You never know which way the wind is gonna blow from one day to the next. However, I’m sure that it’s gonna take you guys by surprise when it blows your way. Adios!

    • GrannyStandingforTruth I can actually see you screaming and jumping around. Your whole comment is nothing but meaningless rants and raves… just like a monkey. Your post lacks facts, evidence, or common sense. It’s just meaningless noise of a screaming money. An old lonely monkey.

    Shall the stripper’s name and photos be published nationwide if she turns out to have lied so maliciously?

    • Yes.

    Seems to me that you guys worry about Jesse Jackson more than he does about you. Usually, when folks always pointing a finger at someone all the time, those same folks are the ones need to be watched.

    • I don’t care about Je$$ie Jack$on or his money. He lost his touch and made a fatal political mistake by aligning himself with the stripper. He associated with this stripper’s false claim of rape has only hurt him more in the eyes of the public. His name is now synonymous with racist and bigot.

    Chris Ford says – Justice58 goes delusional now that his Queen is on the verge of public outing as another Tawana: he says “The women’s lacrosse team has now resended their support for the indicted players.SHAME SHAME SHAME.”

    No they haven’t, and the word you’re looking for is rescinded.

    • I’d like to give justice58 the benefit of the doubt, but she’s just a monkey. Let her scream and shout. It’s nothing but worthless noise.

    I had hoped to catch up with all this, but my family is going to barbeque. I saw a sign to sign up for lacrosse. I’m thinking of stopping by to watch and see if my sons or daughter is interested in playing this game.

    Chris Ford and Torquemada 2, I enjoy your posts. Full of facts, common sense, and fair and objective thinking.

    As usual, Claudo, justice58, woke dude, granny… Your comparison to monkeys was just in the way you argue: no facts, blind emotional rants, baseless opinions, possible lies or delusional fantasies, devoid of common sense and reason, etc… basically worthless noise.

    Monkey posts; although, annoying, can also be fun if you don’t take them (Claudo, justice58, woke dude, granny, etc.. ) seriously and just throw peanuts at them to make them jump and scream.

  215. Betty Friedan says:

    David Evans seem to be a man of integrity and courage to speak out against the claims against him. The stripper seems well armed with all the powers of “victim (i.e. mass public sympathy, militant feminist groups, female “victims” advocate groups, racists groups from the NBPP, Je$$ie Jack$on, NAACP, and many individuals from NCCU, etc.

    Why isn’t the possibility that the stripper made a false claim been investigated?

    Why is DA Nifong trying to “stonewalling” the stripper’s cell phone from the investigators which may show that she was on the phone at the time she made up the story of rape.

    a. Stripper possibly made a false claim of rape by three boys in 1996.
    b. Stripper made a false claim of kidnapping in 1998
    c. Stripper charged with larceny, auto theft, and trying to kill a police officer in 2002
    d. 1st round of DNA shows no link to the lacrosse team.
    e. 2nd round of DNA shows no link to the lacrosse team
    f. DNA proves stripper had *** with boyfriend/pimp and two other men around the time she was dropped off at the party, which accounts for the “rape kit” evidence of recent sexual activity.

    g. The bathroom is absolutely and completely devoid of any evidence of a rape. Where is her DNA? Urine, blood, vaginal fluid, saliva, or tears?
    h. Many people’s DNA were found under her nails but none from the innocent lacrosse boys. The only DNA that has a partial link to one of the boys was found on the top surface of the fake nail.
    i. She lied about losing her fake finger nails in a desperate struggle in the small enclosed bathroom, but pictures show that she removed her nails before inadequately performing her routine. No scratches were found on any of the innocent lacrosse boys’ bodies. No DNA of any lacrosse boy was found under the nail.
    j. The 2 innocent boys she “eeny meeny miney moed” to be her rapists weren’t even at the party the time she claimed the rape occurred. She claims that she’s 100% sure, but she told her father that she’s not sure.

  216. Betty Friedan says:

    The worst thing said in the case involving rape charges against Duke University students was not said by either the prosecutor or the defense attorneys, or even by any of the accusers or the accused. It was said by a student at North Carolina Central University, a black institution attended by the stripper who made rape charges against Duke lacrosse players.

    According to Newsweek, the young man at NCCU said that he wanted to see the Duke students prosecuted, “whether it happened or not. It would be justice for things that happened in the past.”

    This is the ugly attitude that is casting a cloud over this whole case. More important, this collective guilt and collective revenge attitude has for years been poisoning race relations in this country.

    It has torn apart other countries around the world, from the Balkans to Sri Lanka to Rwanda. Nor is there any reason to think that the United States is exempt from such polarization.

    At one time, the black civil rights leadership aimed at putting an end to racism, and especially to the perversion of the law to convict people because of their race, regardless of guilt or innocence.

    Today, this young man at NCCU represents the culmination of a new racist trend promoted by current black “leaders” to make group entitlements paramount, including seeking group revenge rather than individual justice in courts of law.

    This attitude poisoned the O.J. Simpson case and it is now polarizing reactions to the Duke University case. Racial polarization is a dangerous game, especially dangerous for minorities in the long run.

    Tragically, the way the Duke case is being handled, it looks as if District Attorney Michael Nifong is pandering to these ugly feelings. Legal experts seem baffled as to why he is proceeding in the way that he is because it is hard to explain legally.

    It is not hard to explain politically, however. The District Attorney may well owe his recent election victory to having tapped into the kinds of racial resentments expressed by the young man at North Carolina Central University.

    Now Mr. Nifong is riding a tiger and cannot safely get off. His bet best may be to let this case drag on until it fizzles out, long after the media have lost interest. His extraordinary postponement of the trial for a year suggests he understands that.

    In the meantime, the taxi driver who provided the first airtight alibi for one of the accused Duke lacrosse players has been picked up by the police on a flimsy, three-year-old charge, supposedly about shoplifting. He was held for five hours for questioning — reportedly not about shoplifting, but about the Duke rape charges.

    Does this smell to high heaven or what?

    The taxi driver himself is not accused of shoplifting. But two women who were passengers in his cab were. Since when are taxi drivers held responsible for what their passengers did before or after being in their cab?

    What purpose can this harassing of the taxi driver serve? His account of what happened in the Duke rape case has already been corroborated by a surveillance camera at the bank to which he took one of the lacrosse players, as well as by other time-stamped records indicating where his passenger was during the time when he was supposed to be raping a stripper.

    If the prosecution cannot discredit the taxi driver’s statement in a court of law, what can they gain by harassing him? One thing they can gain could be to at least stop the cabbie from going on television again to repeat what he has said before.

    If nothing else, the harassment can serve as a warning to anybody else who might feel like coming forward with testimony that undermines the prosecution’s case.

    Is this America or some banana republic?

    Some people in the media saw this case from day one as a matter of taking sides rather than seeking the truth. They want to be on the politically correct side — for a black woman against white men — and the facts be damned.

    If such attitudes prevail, we will indeed become a banana republic. Or worse.

  217. Betty Friedan says:

    Comparing LAX case to that of Scottsboro Nine

    I am a college instructor who teaches criminal justice and a criminal defense attorney. In my entire career I have never seen such a bizarre and unfair case as the one against three Duke lacrosse players.

    I teach a class about a similar case in American history, the Scottsboro Nine. In March 1931, a group of nine black teen-agers was charged with rape on incredibly flimsy evidence in Scottsboro, Ala. The nine were originally charged with the rape of two white women. Even after one woman testified that she lied about the rape, the nine teens continued to face rape charges and the threat of death by execution.

    In the Scottsboro case, the two women were part-time prostitutes, but that didn’t matter, nor did it matter that at least one of the boys was known to be physically unable to have ***, and two of the boys were only 13. Like Durham, the real issue was race.

    In Scottsboro, nine young men were wrongly charged and condemned because they were black, and today the Duke lacrosse players have, in my opinion, been wrongly charged and condemned because they are white and the alleged victim is black.

    The one constant with respect to the two cases is racism. I often ask my students if it possible for blacks to discriminate against whites in the same type of mindless ignorance as the KKK or the way the mob went after the Scottsboro Nine. The answer I receive is yes, and my students point to Durham as proof.

    JOSEPH R. GUTHEINZ JR
    Houston
    May 20, 2006

  218. justice58 says:

    Betty Friedan: … A nurse at a rape crisis center??? You have as much compassion as a pit bull has for a cripple rabbit!!! HOW MANY NAMES ARE USING BECAUSE I KNOW “YOUR MAMMA” IS ONE OF THEM… It tells me so much about you. You must be scared and shaking in your boots that this case will go to trial. Justice is going to prevail and that’s the way the cookie crumbles. The victim will get a chance to tell her side in a court of law, then, a jury will decide whether it’s guilt or innocence. You are out right lying when you said her father said her boyfriend beats her. I remember an interview with host , Rita Cosby, and the question was asked “do you think she was beaten by the boyfriend”?the father said, “oh no, he would never do that”. Go back and check the interview…. (some people work to get a paycheck and don’t contribute NOTHING). HOW SAD HOW SAD HOW SAD!!!!

  219. Betty Friedan says:

    The DA is trying to hide the stripper’s cell phone from the courts because it may show that the stripper was on the phone at the time she says she was being raped by a boy who wsn’t even there.

  220. Your mamma! says:

    Evidence in the records released by the DA:

    When investigators questioned the stripper after DNA tests on the ***** found inside her ****** and ****** didn’t match any of the Duke players, the stripper admitted to having had *** with at least three men around the time of the alleged rape. The stripper named her boyfriend and two men who drove her to Duke.

    • When questioned, the “drivers” said they would drop her off at several places, including hotel rooms.

    The parents of the boys should sue the stripper and the stripper’s parents, then turn the debt over to collectors to hound them for the rest of their lives. The stripper should end up in jail for a couple of decades, and the DA’s office and the city of Durham should pay all defense fees and damages done to each lacrosse player.

  221. Joe Tnt says:

    But I just thought of this: if people were truly concerned about the supposed victim, and not just out to get white people for whatever reason, they’d be a little more outraged that her father absolutely stated she has a boyfriend who beats her up. And none of the activists have said one word about going after that boyfriend. And the statistics on black-on-black crime, assaults, rape, murder, are astronomical. Where is the outrage over that? Only Bill Cosby has the honesty and courage to admit that.

  222. Joe Tnt says:

    Yeah. Let’s hope for a trial.

  223. justice58 says:

    2JoeTnt: I’m not from Durham so I didn’t know about a family being murdered there, I do hope justice prevails in that case, and the murderers pay the ultimate price. I just want the victim in the duke case to have her day in court and let the courts decide. We have only heard the defense spin their side. If she is lying, then she will have to pay the price. Let the legal system work….Okay Joe

  224. Joe Tnt says:

    I don’t criticize anyone for being a stripper, or for having *** with whoever she pleases, or even for women who get paid for ***. But the significance, in this case, of having *** with multiple partners is that it possibly accounts for her bodily injuries “consistent with rape”. Add to that her family’s own reports about her past claims of gang rape, her mental breakdowns, her changing stories about the rape (first she said there was no rape, then it was 20 men, then only three, etc). CNN experts just reported too that the case should be ended now. Nifong used it to get re-elected. If you doubt how much the facts point to her lying, go read the Court TV message board on the case. Those people really know what they’re talking about. Anyway, if you believe “all lives matter”, you wouldn’t be so quick to be hoping for prison of potentially totally innocent people. The people that look at the facts and judge fairly have nothing to worry about, but people that so badly WANT it to be true have to look at themselves and wonder why that’s so important. (Especially when you look at other crimes in Durham- like that family that was just murdered).

  225. justice58 says:

    2JoeTnt Even so Joe, consensual *** is legal and rape is not. A person can have *** with whomever they please. I understand the defense leaking certain information because they’re being paid mega bucks to do so. We all have only heard one side of the story. If we pass judgement by listening to only the defense, then, what do we need a legal system for? Any one and everyone deserves their day in court. Keep an OPEN MIND,because all lives matter.

  226. Joe Tnt says:

    No, seriously. As someone who believed her story at first, I now wouldn’t believe it as far as I could throw her. It’s already been leaked (from the info. given to the Defense) that she reported the DNA could have been from her boyfriend or her two drivers who she had had *** with that week, and that the drivers took her all over town on appointments in the previous days. I’m just reporting here what is all over the Court TV website. I would never lie about such a thing (I don’t bear false witness).

  227. justice58 says:

    The victim had *** with her boyfriend… That is a common thing between a couple. I haven’t read anything that have said the victim had recent *** with multiply people other than the accused of raping her. STOP LYING ABOUT HER!!!! CONSENSUAL *** IS LEGAL, RAPE IS A CRIME!!!!

  228. Joe Tnt says:

    “common sense” clinched it as far as reasons for different groups standing behind either side. I totally agree, and also about the general resentment a lot of people have for white athletic types with a lot of money. Anyway, as as more evidence comes out (including how many clients the accuser has had *** with recently) it’s looking more absurd than ever that charges were ever brought. Nifong must be a sinister schemer. Anybody would be crazy to attend school at Duke or in that County with that lunatic DA on the loose.

  229. common sense says:

    Everyone, including blacks and lower class whites, likes to see the rich jock fall from grace. That is why this story exploded the way that it did. Black female accuser vs. rich, priviledged, lacrosse players and the most important factor (they’re white).
    Blacks are standing behind the accuser just because she is black. Whites are either siding with the players because they have read the “evidence” and details of the case, or simply because they are white.

    After reading most of what is available on this case, I believe that Nifong doesn’t stand a chance, but hey, he’s already been re-elected, who cares?

  230. justice58 says:

    I perfectly agree with her parents in whatever they do, their daughter has been brutalized, victimized, and raped, she derserves to be compensated and I hope she cleans their pockets. That will teach their parents to raise better children and it will teach them that money can’t buy their way out of trouble. If you don’t like my words, then shut your lying mouth. I believe in whomever I want. YES, I’m behind the “sista” and who cares or give a “d***n what you think or feel. I HONESTLY DON’T CARE BECAUSE YOUR LITTLE OPINION IS NOTHING. I WILL SAY IT AGAIN, THESE BOYS/MEN WILL BE FOUND GUILTY IN A COURT OF LAW AND SENT TO PRISON FOR THEIR CRIME. THE LITTLE SPEECHES WILL NOT HELP THEM. I HOPE THEY GET WHAT IS COMING TO THEM 10X…..YOU GOT THAT.

  231. Your mamma! says:

    Wow! You got some issues justice. Calm down and take your medication. They’re not my “sistas”. I run in better educated circles. It doesn’t take brains to cry rape, obviously their stupidity is catching up with the two “sistas”. And a grand jury would indict a ham sandwich for the murder of the pig.

    Aaaaaany ways, I hope we got all that ghetto talk out of your system, so we can have an adult conversation instead of ignrant rantings.

    Lawyers are waiting in the shadows for lucrative civil suit

    A man stands in the shadows of the Duke Lacrosse ‘rape’ case…watching and waiting. While the three wealthy, white male students remains in criminal court, he is not likely to step forward.

    Even at this early stage, the stripper’s mother is “very much interested” in “getting Willie E. Gary is a litigator renowned for winning huge settlements.

    The stripper’s parents met with Gary in April. The meeting was facilitated by civil rights activist Rev. Jesse Jackson.

    Gary acts as a family adviser, and the parents are laying groundwork to make a civil bid. Public opinion can be a large bargaining chip in obtaining a lucrative settlement. Earlier, the parents spoke freely; now they’re being more media savvy.

    Essence Magazine featured three articles by Kristal Brent Zook. Each is sympathetic to the accuser. (1st) “Family Defends Daughter’s Painful Past”, (2nd) “Nowhere to Turn,” depicts the accuser as living in terror. (3rd) is basically an announcement of Willie Gary’s appearance in the case; it concludes by stating that the parents “worry that their daughter may…need additional legal guidance.”

    Civil law deals in torts or harms inflicted by one person upon another; its purposes are compensation for actual or perceived damages.

    A “guilty” verdict in criminal court can be used to establish liability in a civil one but if the verdict is “not guilty” or the charges are dropped, a civil case can proceed independently.

    Kobe Bryant settled out-of-court settlement. Such settlements are not necessarily admissions of guilt. After months of media blitz, Bryant may have been embarrassed to settle, so civil suits could be lucrative even if the “accuser’s” claim is completely fabricated. The Duke students will face the same choice?

    Civil suits can be lucrative, and they’re easier to win; standards of evidence and other legal protections enjoyed by a defendant are significantly lowered in civil court.

    Clearly, her parents wish to explore a civil proceeding. Gary is conspicuously available.

  232. justice58 says:

    2joe… The “sistas” sure has ALL talking and some, “down right scared” in the largest high-profile case in AMERICA….. and on to the dumb ones….Ohhhh, the boys/men of the duke lacrosse team,who found themselves indicted. BACK AT CHA!!!

  233. Joe says:

    Catholic School?

    These soul sistas are about as smart as my ******. I hope they go to jail.

  234. billikin'dlikebuffalo'd says:

    Great Thread. Duke won’t be the last catholic school to be involved in a *** scandal.

  235. justice58 says:

    A third indictment…Oops… But a new grandjury is handing down yet another. Mr.D.A. is just doing his job and doing it quite well. MIKE NIFONG…MORE POWER TO YA!!!

  236. justice58 says:

    2Your mamma…Seems to me you are the fool(believing only what the defense is spinning)because you’ve only heard one side of the story. Are you afraid of the truth or is it because she just happens to be a black woman? No one deserves to be Raped!!! Seems to me and all that these boys/men were not [smart] themselves,[Quite Dumb] as everyone can see. Do you know with certainty that this victim was drunk? If not, then shut your lying mouth.

  237. Your mamma! says:

    I don’t think that’s what happened.

    I really don’t think those two black women are that smart or sophisticated. The 1st stripper lied when found drunk in another woman’s car to avoid having her probation revoked (1st stripper was arrested in 2002 for larceny, auto theft, attempted murder of a policeman, and lewd public behavior).

    The 2nd stripper first stated that she didn’t believe a rape occurred changed her story as a deal from the DA to support his claim of rape actually occuring, and has stated that she is trying to financially benefit from this scandal.

    Theopholous Washington… these black women aren’t smart or sophisticated enough to plan something like this. They lied and other fools… like yourself “theo”, made up the rest for yourselves.

  238. On March 14, 2006 two professional sisters were working the hood. Saw a chance to get paid. They ran a leverage-collection scam on some white members of the Duke University Men’s Lacrosse team at a party they were hired to dance. They were contracted dancers, party girls, emphasis “par-taayy”. Expected to get paid for “services”. They and their routine … both well known in the area by locals, and anybody street-smart, normally successful. They are on other tapes other places, doin same same. Unsophisticated college kids no match for the pair. Collegians could not deal. Party girls already dealt out serious bile, so leverage gone. This site serves as a watchdog, information hub, and activism vehicle to ensure these people at least become notorious, even if they can’t get paid..

  239. justice58 says:

    LOGIC and COMMON SENSE:(for which you have absolutely none)your opinion,it’s like a nose,everyone has one.

  240. Logic and Common Sense says:

    Seriously people? After the facts that have emerged thus far, how can anyone with even half a brain think these kids are guilty?

    What is it in the liberal brain that makes people so incapable of acknowledging clear, unadulturated fact? I mean, I understand that guilty lax players fits into your world view, and advances your ’cause’ (sad as it is…)- but seriously- there are, in fact, obvious, objective facts in the world- how do you end up so wrapped up in your warped world view that you can ignore, twist, hem and haw your way around the obvious?

    People would take you nutty Cassandra-syndrome suffering idiots more seriously if you crouched your arguments in fact and logic. Instead, you squander any legitimacy you might have in idiocy such as you are displaying here…

  241. justice58 says:

    JUSTCAUSE1: AMEN,TALK TO ME NOW. FOX news have tried to taint the jury pool with their reporting, as if the people in North Carolina would choose these rich white boys over justice being done. Just watch Hannity and Colmes,the beltway boys,. etc. They have called her a liar from the beginning. Sean Hannity is looking for ways to set Reade S. free and now that DUKE has released their report,you can see the glee in his eyes. AIN’T GONNA HAPPEN.

  242. JUSTCAUSE1 says:

    THEY ARE GUILTY..THAT’S WHY FOX NEWS, HAS A STAKE IN PUBLISHING HER NAME AND ADDRESS..AND ANYONE AND EVERYONE THAT HAS READ ABOUT THIS KNOWS, THAT A RAPE OCCURRED. WHY ELSE WERE THE PHOTOS ALTERED?? AND I’M NOT GOING TO DISCUSS HOW THE DNA WAS TAMPERED WITH. AND AS FOR ANYTHING BEING LICKED UP–YOU MEAN CLEANED UP. THE POLICE PURPOSELY WAITED DAYS BEFORE INVESTIGATING…AND SOMEONE WAS STUPID ENOUGH TO MAKE A MISTAKE..AND NO MATTER HOW MANY POLICE OFFICERS LEAK INFORMATION TO PURPOSELY TAINT THE CASE..JUSTICE WILL PREVAIL…THE PLAN WENT BAD WHEN THE 2ND DANCER DIDN’T DRINK HER DRUGGED DRINK. THOSE VERMIN HAD PLANNED A DOUBLE RAPE & MURDER THAT WENT BAD.EVERYONE KNOWS YOU DON’T LEAVE WITNESSES.. BUT EVERYONE AT THE PARTY IS GOING TO HELL, FOR REMAINING SILENT. BECAUSE EVERYONE AT THE PARTY KNEW WHAT WAS GOING ON..YES IN A HOUSE THAT SIZE..AND FOR ANYONE THAT WANTS TO SEE RAPISTS GO FREE…I HOPE YOU GET WHAT YOU DESERVE 10X

  243. justice58 says:

    I know that you all haters of women believe that these boys/men did’t rape this woman but they did. They will be found guilty and sent to prison and you all can go with them if you like. Imagine this for a moment,white boys/men checking into prison for raping a black woman and being cell mates with rough and tough BLACK MEN.WONDER HOW THAT’S GONNA TURN OUT.

  244. Nice Guy says:

    The players have no choice but to defend themselves in the press. They were quiet waiting with the rest of us to prove their innocence through DNA testing, but people like Nancy Grace, Rita Croby, Wendy Murphy, and others who want these boys found guilty even if they aren’t, minimize the significance of absolutely no DNA evidence at all.

    Don’t forget the absence of her DNA also suggests that a crime never occurred.
    1. no vaginal, blood, scat traces left at the supposed ’scene of the crime’.
    2. no saliva or tears where she claimed to be choked and orally raped (unless she licked everything up)

    These guys are going to be found innocent. I hope they pursue deformation litigation against the stripper, DA, and Durham. These boys must be compensated for being falsely accused of rape.

    When the accusation was made, the police questioned the three boys who lived in the house for over six hours, not one asked for a lawyer. The three boys even offered to take lie detector tests. When the entire team was told they had to submit DNA samples, they didn’t call their parents or fight the warrant. The boys cooperated completely. These aren’t the actions of guilty boys, and this will weigh much before a jury. Only when their parents witnessed the circus-like atmosphere created by District Attorney Mike Nifong, the boys were advised to remain quiet.

    Regarding the misleading claims that 70% of rapes don’t have DNA evidence, is this percentage relevant to ‘gang rapes’ or the more common form of ‘companion rape’ “statutory rape” “stranger rape” “incest” etc… It’s highly unlikely there would be a lack of DNA evidence in a gang rape. Where’s her body fluids did she swallow everything?

    Why did the DA have the whole team surrender DNA samples if DNA samples are worthless as feminist and other witch hunters are trying to spin?

    The DA is currently playing down the importance of the DNA evidence because the absence of any DNA suggests that the crime never occurred. She picked two of the wealthiest boys to accuse, but she chose wrong. The alibi seems iron clad.

    Stripper claims: three men raped her on the bathroom rug,
    Fact:
    - No vaginal or seminal fluid, no skin, blood, or hair were found anywhere in the bathroom, bath towels, bath rug, door handle, bathroom floor, basin, water faucet handle, etc.
    - A man cannot take off a condom and not get DNA from himself or the female on his hands and not transfer it to everything he touches?
    - Accuser claims she was vaginally penetrated; accuser claims she was panicked and thought she was going to die; Where is her vaginal fluid, urine, or blood anywhere in the bathroom? Does her body defy basic physiology capable of keeping any ejaculate from spilling out?
    - Accuser claims she was anally penetrated; Where’s her fecal material or scat smears in the bathroom? Does the accuser have inhuman anal sphinter control that prevented any of the ejaculate from dripping out?
    - Accuser claims she was orally sodomized; where is DNA from her saliva and tears? Did she lick up every drop and swallowed any evidence?

    Stripper claim bruises were result of an attack from three boys:
    Fact: Time-stamped photos prove stripper arrived bruised and cut while drunk.

    Nifong stated that a condom was used, if this is true than where is the spermicidal lubricant evidence? Where are the condoms? Where are the condom wrappers? Where is the empty condom box?

    If no DNA material were present on the stripper, than why were DNA samples taken? The District Attorney vigorously claimed that these DNA evidence will clear the innocent.

    The second stripper stated that she didn’t notice any rape, and when they got back in the car the ‘accuser’ didn’t mention anything about being rape.

    Apparently the second stripper charged with embezzling $25,000 changed her story to conspire with the lying stripper under-probation-for-larceny-and-trying-to-kill-a-police-officer-with-a-stolen-car as part of a deal with Nifong to get released from jail, also contacted a public relations firm to ‘not let this opportunity pas her by and to spin it to my advantage’.

    This in the wake of pictures surfacing showing that the ‘lying stripper’ had those fake finger nails missing before the time she lied that a rape occurred.

    With the taste of his own foot still lingering in his mouth, District Attorney Mike Nifong has another piece of evidence blow up in his face, I wonder how’s his ulcer is doing?

    So would it be his own aura or is it the universe’s way of getting back at Nifong for destroying these young boys lives?

    It would be funny if Nifong’s ulcer leads to a colonoscopy, or would it be ‘ironic’ or ‘poetic justice’ that he screws 47 boys over a false rape claim and have to take a 36 inch colonoscopy tube up his @ss for his part in the fiasco he created.

    Lets not forget that not only that there lacks any DNA evidence of the boys, but there’s an absolute absence of DNA from her who claims she was raped vaginally, anally, and orally why wasn’t any of HER vaginal, urine, blood, sweat, fecal, saliva, or tears not found anywhere in the bathroom? Nifong claims that condoms could have been used, then where are the condoms? The condom wrappers, the condom box, the spermicidal evidence from the rape kit?

    Some feminist claim the boys were drunk and where so overwhelmed with excitement that they couldn’t ejaculate- not even one, obviously these women have never had *** with a 19 year old male or any male.

    Finally, don’t forget the three boys who lived in the house agreed to be questioned by the police for over six hours, and volunteered to a lie detector test. When the boys were told to surrender DNA samples, none called their parents r tried to block the order, they complied because they new the ’stripper with the criminal record’ was lying. These are not the actions of guilty boys, but Nifong claimed that they were all covering up for each other and will charge each of them with aiding and abetting because the only information they had is that no rape occurred.

    These boys were and continue to be put through hell by these criminal strippers and an unscrupulous DA. Hopefully these three will be held accountable for the racial riots pending the acquittal of these innocent boys.

    Below is the text of the e-mail sent by Kim Roberts to 5W Public Relations in New York. Roberts, an exotic dancer, accompanied the woman accusing members of the Duke University men’s lacrosse team of raping her the night of March 13.
    Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 2:21 PM
    To: Ronn Torossian
    Subject: duke lacrosse scandal
    Hi!
    My name is Kim and I am involved in the Duke Lacrosse scandal. Although I am no celebrity and just an average citizen, I’ve found myself in the center of one of the biggest stories in the country. I’m worried about letting this opportunity pass me by without making the best of it and was wondering if you had any advice as to how to spin this to my advantage. I am determined not to let any negative publicity about my life overtake me. I’m so confused as to who to talk to for relevant advice and I hope that you can return my e-mail. If you cannot help, do you know of any names and numbers I can call?
    Thanks for your time,

  245. cibbuano says:

    fascinating… we’ll never know the truth, I guess. Those players seem pretty degenerate, though…

  246. Jon Swift says:

    Why Conservatives Support the Duke Lacrosse Team …

    It might not be obvious why conservatives have already taken sides on a case that hasn’t even gone to trial. …

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